Asad Ali on Hamza Yusuf

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Nissaar, Feb 9, 2022.

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  1. Nissaar

    Nissaar New Member

    It seems he has stated his views on perennialism.

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  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    or unfortunate dupes manifesting symptoms of sunk cost fallacy - they have already invested emotional capital too heavily in the charismatic silver-tongued conjurer of a cult-leader who has them drooling over his drawling reminiscences of an Arabian Nights style adventures in the deserts of Mauritania.

    Poor fellas took him for sindbad and are unable to come to terms with the reality that their hero is a mere yankee in the conartistry line. Credulous wide-eyed babes in the Jungle.
  3. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Here is the issue: those who are subscribed to the "traditionalist school" (a.k.a. Perennialism) formed by Rene Guenon and Rama Coomaraswamy have a set of assumptions about truth and reality that do not agree with Islam. One of their main issues is the fact that they see many pre-Islamic religions (as well as Islam) as all having an esoteric (hidden, obscure) core that is the same. As a result, they view the religions themselves as being external forms that allow a person to access that core at a "level of transcendence".

    The issue with that is the fact it assumes each religion's metaphysics is the same. This is false.
    • Hinduism is a pantheistic religion in which they believe Brahma is the universe and the universe is Brahma. In Islam we believe the universe has signs that indicate to Allah's Names and Attributes but that the universe does not have an independent, necessary, and self-subsisting existence, but rather, is entirely dependent on Allah Willing it to exist and bringing it into existence at every moment.
    • Christians believe that God is a substance with three persons each with attributes that are interdependent and one of whom can incarnate into creation. Muslims believe that it is rationally impossible for such an incarnation to happen and that it is rationally impossible for there to be a division of Allah and that it is rationally impossible that He (ʿAzza wa Jall) be specified into persons or be a "substance".
    Another issues is that Perennialists cannot reconcile certain matters of each religion's texts or views of history:
    • There are certain fundamental disputes that cannot be said to "reconcile at the level of transcendence" like beliefs regarding the crucifixion. Muslims believe Sayyidunā ʿIsā (ʿAlayhis Salām) was neither crucified nor killed; Christians, however, believe the opposite.
    • Some Jews believe that our Master (Ṣall Allāhu ʿAlayhi wa Sallam) came to the Arabs only, we believe he (Ṣall Allāhu ʿAlayhi wa Sallam) came as a Messenger to the entire universe.
    • Muslims believe that all other religions are abrogated and only Islam (in the technical usage: the religion that our Master (Ṣall Allāhu ʿAlayhi wa Sallam) came with) is acceptable to follow.
    • Furthermore, Perennialists cannot account for mutually exclusive claims between groups who both claim to follow the same religion:
      • Some "ʿIrfanī" 12er shias today believe the universe is pre-eternal and perpetually created; Muslims believe it had a definite beginning that came after non-existence.
      • Qadiyanis reject the Khatm an-Nabuwwah/attempt to reinterpret it to mean solely the perfection of Nabuwwah but not the cession of sending of new Prophets. Muslims believe no new Prophets will be sent.
      • "Liberal Muslims" openly reject the prohibition on homosexual acts and also reject the obligation of ḥijāb, Muslims believe the former is definitively prohibited and the latter is definitively established as an obligation.
      • Aghākhānis believe that only their Imam has the authority to "reinterpret" the Qur'ān by accessing its "bāṭin" meanings for each era, thereby believing he can "reinterpret" an obligation like ṣalah to mean a group "duʿā" in their jamatkhana. Muslims believe that the core obligations are the core obligations and someone new will not come to fundamentally change the nature of said obligations.
    Therefore Perennialists are kuffār and their Guenonian-Schuonian religion is kufr.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
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  4. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Fair enough- terms should always be defined.

    Perhaps we could just replace perennialism with 'believing in the validity of all religions/believing that previous dispensations are still valid or have not been abrogated' in order to prevent any quibbling over terms. No doubt these guys would have issue with the term perennialism despite the fact that Hamza uses it and equates it with the definition as I've provided (see video I linked earlier).
  5. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran
  6. Nissaar

    Nissaar New Member

    What is perennialism when realting to islaam?

    I googled the word perennialism and seems to relate to knowledge which transcends time etc... So I dont quite understand why perennialism is Kufr.

    Maybe I am missing somethinf, so can someone help?
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    It's just imbeciles with star studded eyes who measure knowledge and scholarship by popularity ratings. That's how the group of dajjal works.

    Call out any celebrity for anything, you can give a mountain of reasons and daleels, and yet, their only retort would be, 'but it's hamza Yusuf' or 'but it's habib ali jifry'

    they're like donkeys carrying books on their backs. Allah guides whom He Wills. That's all.
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  8. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    If we are going to approach it academically, we should also ask "What is perennialism?" too as a ground. Afterwards, we can successively ask the other valids questions you proposed.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2022
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  9. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Furthermore, what do these twitter users say to Shaykh Abdur Rahman, the son of Murabit al Haaj, who condemned TSQ as having statements of kufr?
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  10. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Meh- who cares what randoms on twitter have to say. Note they have not addressed the actual issue at hand:

    Is Nasr a perennialist?
    Is perennialism kufr?
    Is Zayd a kaafir for refusing to consider perenialists as kuffar?

    I would suggest they answer these questions as opposed to committing the following logical fallacies:

    Ad hominem attacks (i.e. what do you know, you're a guy online, khariji, etc)
    Appeal to accomplishments (as if Hamza's achievements somehow protect him from being questioned regarding the above)
    Strawman (as if we ever claimed a birth right privilege to Islam. Someone born a Muslim would receive the same treatment... I mean, look at how we treat Nasr himself)

    Considering how big their cult leader, Hamza, is on studying the trivium, it's surprising how little these online commentators are able to grasp logic.

    And for the avoidance of any doubt- there is nothing 'soft' about my takfeer of hamza. Mawlana Abu Hassan saab can speak for himself.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2022
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  11. Hassan_0123

    Hassan_0123 HhhhhhhM_786

    Abu Hasan and Sunniport under fire on twitter...

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  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Here's some more old news for those who have forgotten and for those who don't like to be reminded of their hero's crimes.

    Lumbard is going round in circles (probably thinking that his circus in TSQ was still unfinished) and not daring to say anything for certain. He seems more confused about Islam's position on Trinity than the Christians are confused about Trinity itself.

    Lumbard distinguishes Trinity from Tri-theism and tries to portray Trinitarians as monotheists.

    Then he babbles something about a "confusion" among the sahaba on Negu's acceptance of Islam - after the Prophet(peace be upon him) led funeral prayers for him in absentia.

    All throughout the attempt is to sow doubt and confusion. That's the modus Zaytuna.
  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Why are they so irked when a simple publicly known fact is mentioned?

    Hurts, eh?
  14. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    You'll notice that twitter is a cesspit. Why does everyone respond with ad hominems? A claim has been made regarding Hamza's affiliation with Nasr- so respond to THAT CLAIM. It's quite ironic that the Hamza is always banging on about how schools should teach the liberal arts especially the trivium- I completely agree. It would help prevent this type of fallacious reasoning from his cult followers.
  15. barelwi

    barelwi New Member

    This guy says about aH, "Imagine being some anonymous person on a forum thinking you could benefit the ummah the way Sh Hamza has for the last 25+ years."

    What does anonymity have to do with contribution? Secondly, preaching misguidance != benefiting the ummah. Pea brained folk who can't think about their heroes analytically for one moment.
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  16. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    If Sh. Asrar is sharing a stage with him this Friday, it will be prudent for someone to make him aware of the issues raised here. Otherwise, no doubt, another Imam Shahid video will be on the way. Don't let all the work you did on Hamza go to waste.

    Not only that, but someone needs to get a response from Haafiz saab- might as well be the person sitting next to him. Bringing the issues to his attention via the internet has clearly not worked, as per the reply he gave previously.
  17. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    don't tell me that JAK hands degrees to those who manage to scrape a mere 35%!

    Because if you compare it to Ashrafiya, the real tally might perhaps be only 5% ...

    How ridiculous: "I am a certified Neem Mullah - here take a look". applause.
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  18. Nissaar

    Nissaar New Member

    On the Hamza Yusuf issue he has made a mistake.

    But i dont find it nice to bring him down in matters of his studies or personal attacks. I think this should not be the way of the Ahlus Sunnat wal Jamaat.

    We should also understand that he is trying to help the youth such as myself on social media with the Q&A (despite sometimes the rulings are different from what I have learnt).

    Maybe it will be better if he is contacted directly and sort this issue out. And if he refuses then It ould be understandable everybody calling him out publicly.
  19. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    If the passing mark of his madrasa is only 35% then that means he's useless the remaining 65%. That perhaps sums up how Asad Ali managed to graduate!
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  20. Nissaar

    Nissaar New Member

    I think it will be easier if someone contact him directly and see what are his answers first, then he can be cancelled and called oit publicly.

    It will avoid a Shaykh Asrar vs Maulana Shahid Ali type of fight.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2022

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