Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by AR Ahmed, Apr 4, 2023.

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  1. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    how come sidi when he is hobnobbing with tafzili and minhaji people, it is not just this aberration in mas'alah khata, but his mingling with ahl al bida'h as well.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator


    just saying that while this aberration has had serious implications for ahlus sunnah in pakistan/UK, irfan shah sahib has not contradicted any major point of aqidah and hence we still consider him a sunni who has some aberrations.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    sherkhan, Ghulam Ali and Aqdas like this.
  3. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Just to clarify, I don't want brothers to think I am in favour of Shah Sahib. I vehemently oppose their:
    1. Role in getting Dr Jalali sahib arrested (As one of senior Qaid's of Markazi Jammat e Ahle Sunnat, which appealed for the arrest of Jalali Sahib).
    2. Using the pretext of a hadith (most will argue that it was out of context too) to dish out filthy swears at Jalali sahib and his parents
    3. Instigating a fatwa of kufr on Jalali Sahib (We know the writer of the fatwa did not act of his own accord) that most Mashaykh present did not sign.

    Certainly, their credibility as an uncompromising defender of the Sunni creed is now severely been brought into question. Where previously, the swearing was tolerated, it certainly won't be now.

    By no means it is a point of no return for Shah sahib in terms of their aqida but the nature of their association with people like Syed Munawwar Jammati is going to be decisive. I have not given up on them and who knows they might even set the likes of Syed Munawwar Jammati straight.
  4. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    It's not because he was/is 'Hujjat ul Islam' but because according to Shah Sahib Pir Naseer had repented from his non-sunni beliefs before he passed away. I don't see how that hurt the 'cause' and because Pir Naseer passed away soon after this meeting with Shah Sahib, the ulema thought it best to move on.

    If the current custodians of Golra Sharif have the same non-Sunni beliefs and claim that they are just following Pir Naseer, then they need to openly refute Syed Irfan Shah's stance, and vice versa.

    However, I don't see how Syed Irfan's stance hurts the cause because he did not give credence to Pir Sahib's non-Sunni beliefs but rather announced that Pir Sahib had repented. This then made it futile for the Tafdhlis to quote Pir sahib.

    Overall, we should think favourably of those who passed away because they are not here to clarify their positions.
  5. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    just to clarify, talking about the entitled peerzada types.

    i believe in respecting and honoring Sayyids as long as they adhere to Sunni 3aqaid and honor the Shari3ah.
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    that would have been the case if he didn't himself undo that very good work of the past.

    if he just resorted to galis on a personal matter or another matter, we could've consoled ourselves 'at least he stands up to the wahabis, rafidis and the tafdilis' but he has attacked those very aqaid he defended in the past. he has really done rujoo3 from Sunniyat by attacking the 3aqidah of ma3soomiyat

    i was thinking of the same thing, but then actually giving an interview of 2 hrs with that tasleem sabri, and then giving a 9 minutes long gali of a speech says otherwise. it simply can't be given away to senility or a mere slip

    had he just made a case of adab and kept silent, he might have gotten away with it, but he went on to elaborate extrapolations and so on.

    he made a spectacle of the Ahlus Sunnah. it looked as disgusting as a family fight spilling on to the street

    this is the real issue with the Sunnis of the subcontinent.

    they give lofty 7 lines long titles to people who don't even deserve to be called mawlana, and kiss just anyone's hands and feet

    the other thing is that for all our egalitarianism, and anti-hereditary attitudes, we think that just because someone's father or grandfather was a shaykh or wali, that means any and everyone down the line will be the same.

    as the saying goes, 'Allah peer banaye, peerzada na banaye'

    it's just that these peerzadas (Sayyids or not) have a very high sense of entitlement. this problem exists in EVERY SINGLE khanwada of scholars/peers, even Ala Hazrat's - heritage above knowledge of deen.

    some Sayyids think of themselves as equal to THE Ahlul Bayt of those times or at least the next best person after Ghawthe A3azam. i can see how someone would have felt their own statuses threatened- if the word khata was attributed to Sayyidah Fatimah radi Allahu 3anha, then what about present day Sayyids. people will question them too. (eventhough Irfan Shah himself blasted Mawdudi). sorry but this is something i feel needs to be said.

    i'm not Sayyid myself, but closely related to a few.

    i know one such peerzada in my extended family. his father was a well known wali. but he's no where close. just cashing in on 'we're x-th generation of Ghawthe A3azam's sons' and parading as a Shah saheb. his etiquettes are similar to Irfan Shah saheb's. just can't stand even the most minor of disagreements.


    that mardood hanif qureshi said in one video, 'when he was defending the sahaba none of you guys got a heartburn. but when he defends his grandmother, you're all up in arms.'

    someone should tell that mardood, when Irfan Shah defended the sahaba, he did use the word 'khata' for them (as did hanif beghayrat himself when he was supposedly praising Hazrat Ali). classic case of 'ulta chor kotwal ko daante'. was a very clever sentence to impute that we somehow have a Sahaba vs Ahlul Bayt mindset! he also exposed his latent rafidiyat with that sentence.

    also in that gali conference, he tries to induce crocodile tears, 'i ask all you Sayyids, did Jalali's words not hurt your feelings?' and you should have seen munawwar jamati and some chamchas make a sade emoji face


    Sunnis will NEVER get out of this rut, unless and until we stop

    1. giving insanely lofty titles to peers/mawlanas or even plain idiots donning mawlana uniforms
    2. considering naatkhwani as a source of 3aqidah and knowledge and promote jahil naatkhwan mafia
    3. giving precedence to personalities above principles
    4. giving preference to shola bayan taqreers full of naarebazi over actual seeking of knowledge

    it's all a waste of time discussing these matters till then.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I admit that it is very harsh, but the fitnah he is siding with and leading is more damaging than all the good he has done to ahlussunah. whatever he did in the past he himself has nullified all that.

    If he takes back his fatwa and distance himself from all the tafzili tolah around him then we can respect him again being a sayyid and a sunni scholar, but the level of trust cannot remain the same on sunni aqaid.
  9. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    It is indeed harsh. His latest slip notwithstanding, Sayyid Irfan Shah's services and his previous robust stand against shias/tafdhilis should not be belittled.

    As I have pointed out before, anti-Jalali camp couldn't have conducted the hatchet job without Shah sahib as figurehead. Munawwar Jamaati, a Hanif Quraishi or any tut-punjiya maulvi would not have managed to counter-weigh Dr Jalali on this issue and the campaign would have fizzled without even a whimper. There are very few ulemas in UK and Pakistan who command Shah sahib's reputation as muqarrir. Mind you, Shah Sahib's history of public stand and staunch reputation against rafizis suited anti-Jalali camp to mount a credible attack on Dr Jalali.

    I don't know whether it's an age/failing faculty issue or Shah sahib's gullibility/poor judgement or his succumbing to the temptation of being the ahl us-sunnah face/spokesman. I hope he realises the damage he has done to himself and his legacy.

    In private, Shah sahib appears a very humble and soft-spoken person.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  10. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    It is very harsh, and I have no regrets. I measure the height of people by the yardstick of the principles of shariah. I respected him despite his foul mouthing because he was a sayed and APPARENTLY a sunni alim, though I did not like his style. Now, since he has crossed the borderline of sunni creed I have the right to change my opinion about him. I don't like jalai sahab either due to his causing political split among ahlussunah, but on shariah matters which are haq I must take his side.

    I did not say it before, but I think irfan mashadi sahab would have done better if he was a punjabi movie actor.

    If you don't agree with my comments, that is your right, I don't mind.
  11. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    Unfortunately nowadays the rank of a person is measured by their media appeal and subsequent mass following that occurs due to that rather than the actual deeni ilm they possess.

    Irfan Shah came into light first in UK with his stance against the closet shia PAQ of Walthamstow, and from there started coming frequently on ummah channel and gained fame. But throughout this time it was known that he had a very 'Don' like personality with a habit of gaali galoch that has never been a way of any of our pious predecessors. From there ppl started calling him titles like "Hujjut tul Islam' and so on. Honestly can anyone in their right mind compare him to the likes of Imam Ghazali (ra) to be conferred upon with such lofty titles?

    Remember, the so called 'principles' that he apparently preached in all those videos, we can clearly see him having broken all of them by closely associating himself with rafidis.

    Ala Hazrat has beautifully explained the pitfalls of associating with misled and corrupt ulema in his malfuzat and we can clearly see the effects of those in him where he has become so blinded in spite of the sunni aqaid so clearly explained to him already by several of the senior ulema.
  12. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @Noori I think your observation is harsh. Playing fast and loose with a sunni principle does not necessitate what you are suggesting. I have a lot of issues with Shah Sahib's handling of this issue but that does not mean they have become a tafdhli or Shia. Their previous efforts are testament to their aqida. Until they say Sayidah or Ahl ul Bayt are ma'sum, or promote any other tafdhli/shi'i belief, we have no right fo make accusations like you have made. Let's not over react.
  13. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I never liked irfan shah saahab, but respected him as a sayyid and sunni alim, now he has lost all that respect too. Either he was a covert tafzili shia waiting for the time to create fitnah or has become a shia now, or to the least he is suffering from some mental disease, if that is the case May Allah Ta'ala cure him from this mental disorder.
  14. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

  15. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Well-Known Member

  16. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Linked to this, pir Ghufran Syalwi alleged that he was verbally attacked and surrounded by group of students from the Jamia that Maulwi Hanif Qureshi is linked to during the funeral of pir sahib at Golra sharif. The other side havd denied Syalwi sahib's version of events and both sides are providing 'Witnesses' who are taking a qasm on their version of events. This is what 'learned' Sunnis in Pakistan have sunk to. An embarrassing and sad state of affairs. May Allah most High protect our Iman in this time of fitna. Ameen.
  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    ... assuming that that particular charge gets proven.

    If you go by Irfan Shah and his rafidi buddies' fantastical extrapolation that attributing khata to Sayyidah is a gustakhi against her and amounts to de jure blasphemy, then they might go for 295-C.

    Legal question: If gustakhi against Ahle Bayt, assuming it is proven, amounts to blasphemy against the Prophet 3alaihis salam, then what about gustakhi against the other sacred personages mentioned in 298-A - Ummahaatul Mumineen, Sahaba, Khulafae Rashidin - does that also amount to blasphemy against the Prophet?

    If yes then all of 298-A is redundant.

    If no, then why include Ahle Bayt in 298-A, and why not include them under 295-C?
  18. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    So it will be section 298A that has been applied. So max imprisonment of 3 years should he be found "guilty"!
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    These are the laws:

    Screenshot_20200805-191911.png Screenshot_20200805-192005.png

    Attached Files:

  20. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    It will also be interesting to understand what exactly Pakistan's blasphemy law includes.

    Now and again the rafidhis of Pakistan throw all kinds of abuse towards the first 3 Khulafa e Rashideen (ra) and in particular Syeda Ayesha Siddiqua (ra) and get away with it. Whereas Jalali sahib just used the word 'khata' which did not even constitute disrespect and gets thrown into jail!

    And coming to this whole jail thing, who the hell makes the decision on whether it constitutes blasphemy or not! Will it be some court judge not well versed in the matters of shariah? Or will it be an ignorant jury panel?

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