fatawa against tahir jhangvi

Discussion in 'Miscellany' started by snaqshi, Nov 17, 2014.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    See post #4 of this thread just after chisti-raza's post where you assume that since the DI fatwa simply refers back to someone else's fatwa of gumrahi so that's also the mawlana ilyas EVEN AFTER WEMBLEY etc. I said you 'alluded' to this by using the words 'since your shaykh says xyz etc.'

    The point is that either di people know of webley and are silent out for fear of political repercussions or they don'nt know any of this so are sticking to the old fatwa.

    Whatever you meant to say it sounded like Di/mawlana ilyas know everything and are under no pressure from anyone and after thorough tahqiq have come to the conclusion that tahir's kufr is not iltezami and so the attaris should disregard the fatwa of other muhaqqiqeen and follow the one by 'their shaykh'. If this were true, and I hope it is not, then it will raise serious concerns about DI leadership.

    see the above. I hope you did not but that was the import of your words. Even if you didn't mean that it certainly appeared so because you did not add any clauses that in light of the other developments the questioner should seek a fresh fatwa instead of blindly following the older one. Your insistance on asking him to stick to the old one meant that you agree it is applicable even after the kufriyat.

    This question is specifically for brother unbeknown, "if you own personal thought is that anyone who does not make takfir on Dr Padri is spineless (in your opinion), what you going to say about Mufti Azam Pakistan Mufti Ashraful Qadiri sahib, that he is spineless?"

    I asked you to consider the asterisk. what i have said is: mufti siyalvi has done takfir but that does NOT mean that others are spineless! Read again.
  2. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    In a private gathering Mufti Ahsraf ul-Qadri said regarding Tahir that he is badtreen gumrah, maybe even a kafir already.
    There can be found many kufriyaat in his words and actions.
    But I still won't do his takfir, before questioning him.

    (I'm parapharasing from my memory, but this was the essence of what he said.)
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  3. snaqshi

    snaqshi Active Member

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    (1) I did not allude to Maulana Ilyas sahib saying anything......, please show me any post i have made where I have mentioned that Maulana sahib has said this or that? You have put 2 & 2 and got 5 on that one bro....! I was and in fact only made reference to fatawa given by Dar ul Ifta of DI and nothing more so your comments "snaqshi's 'alluding' that Mawlana Ilyas Qadri " or nothing but from your own thinking.

    (2) can i prove....why should i prove ............LOL you are etheir having a laugh or chatting bungle, yiu show me from any statement of mine i have said that "mawlana ilyas considers tahir a muslim even after knowledge of his kufriyat", that is nothing more then a blatant lie and buhtaan I have never said such a thing.

    (3) Brother Unbeknown maybe you should consider in your long list the case of Pir Sayyed Karem Shah sahib? what are you going to say about him and his writings? and whilst your working that out What are you going to say about the ulema who were his contempories that did not issue fatawa against him or what he wrote?

    This question is specifically for brother unbeknown, "if you own personal thought is that anyone who does not make takfir on Dr Padri is spineless (in your opinion), what you going to say about Mufti Azam Pakistan Mufti Ashraful Qadiri sahib, that he is spineless?" Astagfirollah azeemi wa atoubu ilayh!!!

    And for the record my postion on the matter regarding that of Dr padri is that of Mufti Azam Pakistan Mufti Ashraful Qadiri (may allah bless him) and Ghazali Dowran alayhi rehma wardah namely he is batreen ghumrah....
  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    another thing I realized:

    snaqshi's 'alluding' that Mawlana Ilyas Qadri, author of the book 'Kufriya Kalimat Ke Baare Me Suaal Jawab' (which he himself has said is his most important work), considers tahir a muslim even after knowing and understanding his christmas and wembley antics, is to accuse him of something far henious than mere political diplomacy and anyone having an iota of respect for him would take a strong exception to this. I do. I am surprised that the attaris visting this forum are silent.

    How do scholars explain some of the deviant positions found in the books of the great Imams of past? Such as the statement that the abawayn karimain passed away upon kufr found in a manuscript of Imam Azam's Fiqh-al-Akbar, the statements supporting tajsim in the Ghunya of Gawth al-A'azam and al-Ibanah of imam Ash'ari, attributions of anthropormorphic beliefs to Imam Ahmed, certain statements in Imam Alusi's tafsir, Imam Shami's praise of Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam dhahabi's authorship of al-'uluww? Some they regard as tampering, some as the katib's mistake, some outright lies, some having weakness in sanad, some to mis-information and the last as rujoo' from the prior position. Nowhere do they say, 'oh, this is a deviant position but nonetheless since it is attributed to the imam it must be true!' i.e they resort to ta'wils.

    Can snaqshi prove that mawlana ilyas considers tahir a muslim even after knowledge of his kufriyat? Any positive statement from him that "I know one person has done such and such actions but I don't think that makes him a kafir"? If not, then why is he advising his mureeds to turn a blind eye to the facts on the ground and consider the actions of tahir only deviant but not kufr? Did mawlana Ilyas authorize him to assume things about him and represent him to the public? I am sorry to say that snaqshi is encouraging people to harbour bad-gumani about him: namely that he doesn't consider encouragement to commit kufr and shirk as kufr. What greater disservice can there be?
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    btw, the wembley issue might slip urdu-only ulema due to lack of knowledge in english

    i know this from my communication with the Amjadia mufti sab. the very first thing he told me was that he doesn't know english so sending him tahir's video of the wembley episode was not much useful.

    alhamdulillah i transcribed the english of tahir's comments, and sent it to the mufti sab along with its urdu translations

    also when other common people like us offer to translate it for the benefit of the scholars who don't know english, we tend to be careful we don't come across as 'acting smart' in front of them, if you know what i mean.

    my point is that for those ulema who don't know english, and consequently might not come to grip with the seriousness of tahir's blasphemies, they need to be adequately and seriously informed. don't assume anything.

    also some youtube videos of the event with subtitles in urdu and Arabic etc. need to be made. tahir's shaytaniyat and dajjaliyat needs to be translated for the ulema who don't know english. sad but that's what needs to be done.
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    snaqshi, please care to understand what an asterisk succeeding and preceding a satement indicates.

    Secondly note the difference between:

    1. Difference of opinion.
    2. Difference in publicizing an opinion.

    Thirdly, if you have not changed your stance then the reply by AQ should tell you that you are on a completely different plain to his- so your 'alluding' pharse is inapplicable.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  7. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    My position is that what tahir did at Wembley was kufr and if he continues to support his action and considers it permissible, then he has become a kafir.

    Ulama should at least address the Wembley issue, whether it is kufr or not. So don't call him a kafir if you're unsure of his current position but the past can't be changed. The Wembley event is on YouTube so at least tell people the ruling upon such actions.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  8. snaqshi

    snaqshi Active Member

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    For the record brother "unbeknown" i have not changed my position and neither neither do i call anyone "spineless" for adopting a differing opinion in the abscence of ijma3 on a matter. What I have said and consistently said is that there is differing of opinions regarding Dr padri sahib ranging from "batreen Ghumrah (mufti azam Allama Ashraful Qadiri's current position [last time i heard]" to fatawas of kufr.

    My initial comments were at brother attari786, which i stated that it was better for him to follow the position of his shaykh/the tanzeem he follows on the matter, which happens to be DI, who have stated that Dr padri is ghumrah whether this fatawa needs revising due to newer events involving Dr Padri sahib then that is for them to address).

    So brother, "unbeknown" if you own personal thought is that anyone who does not make takfir on Dr Padri is spineless (in your opinion), what you going to say about Mufti Azam Pakistan Mufti Ashraful Qadiri sahib, that he is spineless? Astagfirollah azeemi wa atoubu ilayh!!!

    And for the record my postion on the matter regarding that of Dr padri is that of Mufti Azam Pakistan Mufti Ashraful Qadiri (may allah bless him) and Ghazali Dowran alayhi rehma wardah namely he is batreen ghumrah....
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  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    snaqshi, i didn't say there are differences of opinion on tahir in pakistani Sunni circles.

    i said that for the most part, the Sunni pakistani ulema are not putting their rulings on paper that tahir is a murtad, rather they're just verbally saying it in private gatherings or hinting to it.
  10. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    and brother chisti-raza's point is pertinent: Turab-ul-Haq sahib is ATLEAST refuting tahir in public which is better than complete silence.

    Other Pakistani ulema who have publicly refuted tahir by name: sayyid Muzaffar Hussain, Asif Jalali sahib, sayyid Irfan shah, Mufti Ashraful qadiri.

    But I don't know if any of them have done takfir in public. I remember that Irfan shah sahib did hint at this in the aftermath of the wembley circus.
  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    what about the fatwa by Mufti Fazl Siyalvi of Sargodha, isn't it a fatwa of kufr?*

    @snaqshi what you have been saying is not at all 'alluding' to what brother AQ has said. Go through your previous posts. If you have changed your stance please state it clearly.

    *just for info. not trying to say that everyone else is spineless.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  12. snaqshi

    snaqshi Active Member

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    Salaam alaykom, I found your post really interesting and a fair and personal summation of where your at, and regarding your comments about DI i think you hit the nail on the head, that what i was trying to allude to. At the moment there is a number of differing opinions regarding Dr Padri, so why anyone feels they have a right to bash another brother/sister, malign them or insult them because they follow a differing opinion is fathomless, especially when there is no clear ijma3 on the matter.

    In the case of the Deobandiyya akaabireen, there is fatawa's endoursed by the ulema of arab and ajam (55 mufti's from arabi & a fatawa endorsed by 300 ulema from india and another fatawa endorsed by 200+ ulema, so in total 555 ulema plus all those that have confirmed and endorsed it afterwards).

    You will find something similar regarding the ahmadiyyah/qadianiyya etc, where there is clear consensus, but i do take your point brither Abdul Qadir that when it comes to Dr Padris sahib there isn't that firmness or clarity from the people who are suppose to be guiding us.

    Allahu 3alim, may Allah azza wa jal forgive us for our short comings and grant us to be on a better way inshallah
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    these were my stages of istifta with Darul Uloom Amjadia

    1. i asked the mufti i know to please get a fatwa from Shah Sahib or any other mufti of Amjadia (including himself) on tahir, mentioning him by name along with the specific wembley event and its specific acts - was not successful, and i was told about the volatile situation in pakistan (politics, anarchy, foreign forces, local opposition, mafia thugs, etc.) i'm not saying this sarcastically*.

    2. i asked him to then try to get a general fatwa without mentioning tahir by name, similar to what Aqdas said:

    i was told, it makes no real difference as i am literally giving tahir's identity away, and such a fatwa would be no different than one mentioning him by name, and the whole volatile situation etc in pakistan. to be honest, this really hurt me as a Muslim.

    3. ok try to get a fatwa from another smaller Sunni madrasah or Darul Uloom of your choice where big names wouldn't come to surface and it might stay low profile as far as the volatile situation is concerned. the dear mufti tried and gave up. he was confronted by something like (in my own words) 'what's a high profile Amjadia mufti doing asking us little guys for a fatwa?'. you know, rightly or wrongly, desis' minds work in overdrive to connect all the real or perceived dots.

    4. during a lot of discussing and strategizing, i suggested to just add a signature or a stamp at the end of a copy or print out of Tajush Shari3ah's fatwa expressing their solidarity and agreement with him. i was told that can't be done for various different reasons

    5. when they told me "woh hamarey bade hain. unka fatwa hamara fatwa hai" my final push was to ask them to just please give me this very one line on an Amjadia letterhead with their stamp 'We agree with Tajush Shari3ah's fatwa on tahir. His fatwa is our fatwa' thus endorsing the fatawa from india and expressing solidarity with indian Sunnis, and i was told that that's already understood and popularly known.

    that's when i stopped persisting with them. all this transpired over a course of a month to two months.


    * my contact is a very down to earth, honest, and straight forward mufti who doesn't speak with the twisted tongue of diplomacy. and i have a lot of respect for hazrat qiblah Shah Sahib. if it was anyone else or any other institute, i would have probably not spared them my ruthless cynicism, but given their past works and efforts, and the fact that just about everyone in pakistan is reluctant to PUBLISH a hujjah against tahir's riddah, i am forced to ponder over the fact:

    that Allahu a3lam perhaps they do have some 3udhr. maybe they are fulfilling their duty in spoken bayans and taqaareer but withholding from publishing it due to the situation in pakistan. they probably might feel that 'we are taking care of our congregations in our spoken bayans, as for those far away, it is the job of their own scholars to take care of them. we are not in a position to publish documentary statement on tahir's riddah'

    but i do digress. i think sparing this dajjal from a written hujjah, will make matters worse for pakistani Islam and Muslims. it might even lead to a campaign to reverse the fatawa and laws against the shayateen known as qadianis. yes the times are bad and the situation in pakistan is volatile, but we need to remember the hadith that the reason we will be in such bad state towards the end of times is because of wahn - love of dunia, fear of death, and reluctance to fight


    so unless someone can point me to a pakistani mufti / darul ifta issuing a documented statement on tahir as an apostate dajjal, i don't take too well to anyone's singling out of DI for not issuing a documented statement on tahir. if you want to talk generally about the state of pakistani ulema, then that's fine, and i will even support you, see my lines above.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
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  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    btw, when i say bayans, i'm referring to private ones. on live tv, or recordings, more likely than not, you are bound to find the kind of toned down language akmal sahab uses in that linked video.
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    yes it is a very noble and reward-worthy task to humiliate and lambast tahir. a big hug for you for putting it like that brother!

    i've said it before on this forum. we are not living in the times of Imam Abdul Qadir Jilani or Imam Malik (radi Allahu 3anhum). if it was those times of such nobility, even their street sweepers and convicted criminals would know for a fact that tahir is a murtad dajjal. a fatwa wouldn't even be required. by now, tahir would have been hung out to dry!

    i believe it was during the times of Sayyidina Hasan Al-Basri radi Allahu 3anhu wherein some rumor was spread that the dajjal appeared, and he just laughed it off, saying if dajjal has appeared in that time, the little kids of the area would poke fun at him and drive him away!

    these are not those times. yes indeed, we don't need a fatwa from "my shaykh" or "my pir" on a matter of daruriyat-e-deen, but the fact of the matter is that

    1. our awam has lost its marbles for the most part.

    2. just 4 or 5 fatwas out of the entire subcontinent is too easy for this awam to brush it all under the "difference of opinion" rug! - regardless of "my shaykh" or "his shaykh" or so on - we have seen it right here on this forum.

    it is for this reason, we need a coordinated and collective effort against tahir to issue a joint statement or ----- sigh ------

    an open letter from the subcontinental ahle haqq ulema completely blasting him to smithereens ------

    so people know that the all of the ulama-e-haqq know this murtad dajjal exactly for what he is and the bulk majority have endorsed this in writing!

    it's not about verification per se. rather it's about getting an ijma3 (well, a desi one at least) so that we can spoon-feed it to the jahil awam falling for the dajjal.

    btw, if we get a desi ijma3 from the Sunnis, the following benefits will follow (probably):

    1a. the deobandis will shut their yaps from calling tahir a "Barelwi"; or
    1b. if they grant him some sort of a refugee status welcome in their circles, they will establish their own status as mala3een a3daa ad-deen
    2. in theory at least, any Arab/foreign Sunnis worth their salt will have no choice but to distance themselves from this dajjal based on what his own countrymen say

    of course the common word shayateen won't care, and tahir is already in their league. he probably eagerly waits for the day he will get called to the ris conference.

    in the pre-wembley fatwa (2005), the specific act of calling upon christians to do shirk in a mosque was NOT mentioned. the posed question was just if he's a Sunni or not and that's what the answer was tailored around.

    post-wembley, they only gave you this one-liner as you posted here - http://sunniport.com/index.php?thre...position-on-alahazrat.11461/page-3#post-45028 - they probably didn't record your question specifically mentioning wembley kufriyat

    this is no different to my anecdote with Darul Uloom Amjadia - i specifically spelled out his kufriyat and gave them specific questions - they just said along the lines of 'you already have a written fatwa from Tajush Shari3ah calling him a kafir. we agree with it. woh hamare badey hain. unka fatwa hamara fatwa hai' verbally of course.

    i see your point. my point is that thus far, no one in pakistan has given a documented & sealed endorsement of establishing tahir's riddah.

    they are all trying their level best not to issue a documented hujjah. DI is the same as all other pakistanis in this respect, at least same as Amjadia - just passing the buck, saying we rely on this or that shaykh's fatwa - Allahu a3lam if they have a valid 3udhr considering pakistan's political situation and anarchy. maybe you can take DI to task for 'their principle' but on this tahir issue, others are going by pretty much the same principle.

    Darul Uloom Amjadia's logic is precisely what brother Unbeknown has said - every 3aqil baligh mukallaf momin with half a brain knows full well about tahir's blasphemy, so what's the need for a fatwa - they told me this in their defense of not issuing a written statement due to pakistani anarchic situation and politics

    yes Shah Turabul Haq sahib blasts tahir in his majalis, as does Kaukab Noorani sahib (two people i know for sure who do this in their gatherings). i can show you whatsapp messages from his subordinate muftis at Amjadia, stating left, right and center that tahir is a khabeeth, a shaytan, a dajjal, etc.

    i'm pretty sure DI muballighs might be doing the same in their mehfils, as will be Liaqath Hussein sahib, as will be Muzaffar Shah sahib and others.

    but all this is not enough.

    a written endorsement is something that stays as a historical record and hujjah.

    it can be virally propagated to all those who are not fortunate enough to be closely associated to them or attend their gatherings. the written tehreer will reach even the ghafil awam.

    also don't forget the so many desis living overseas, and his fitnah there is larger than it is back home.

    just imagine if Ala Hazrat only trashed the deobandis in his bayans, but didn't write anything about them!

    what would you or i have today as rebuttal on the deobandis?

    i'm not defending DI here. rather forgive my hubris, but i'm saying all the pakistani ulema are mistaken in not issuing a clear cut written hujjah against tahir - despite mentioning his riddah in their bayans. again - Allahu a3lam if they have a valid 3udhr considering pakistan's political situation and anarchy

    we are Sunnis who are not afraid of anything because the truth is on our side. we are not 12'er shias whose hatred of sahaba mostly comes to surface in spoken bayans as opposed to documentation.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
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  16. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

  17. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    AbdalQadir: All major sunni ulema should openly come out against tahir and state unequivocally that he has turned apostate due to his actions not just in speeches but also in writing either by issuing fatawa of their own or by endorsing already existing fatawa in the name of the institutions/jama'ats/organizations that they are part of or are seen to represent. This collective effort is required to corner tahir considering the false image of his sunniyat and piety imprinted on the public mind besides the fact the awaam have a tendency to exonerate all evils of their self-professed hero on the flimsiest of pretexts and an excuse of 'oh! that sunni shaykh still hasn't condemned him' is a very potent one to give tahir-sympathizers a means of escape and a launching pad to vilify as jealous bigots those scholars who have done takfir.

    Aqib Qadri: Yes, such a thing would indeed be ideal and is necessary. Nonetheless, even if they don't, that's no reason for a mukallaf mu'min who is fully aware of tahir's kufr to preponderate on the matter just because the particular shaykh he follows is yet to issue a public condemnation of tahir - because that is equivalent to saying - "Not until my shaykh or that particular shaykh issues a public fatwa of kufr will I consider any denier of daruriyat-e-deen as kafir, even if I am fully aware that he has indeed violated a daruri precept" - which is completely illogical as far as the principles of deen are concerned. So tomorrow even if DI issues a fatwa of kufr against tahir and all attaris begin to consider him a murtadd, the ashrafis will say, "yes, we know that ridawis and attaris consider him a murtadd but we will not do so until madni miya declares him a murtadd in writing or speech"! Which begs the question: "Do you consider the infamous four deobandis muratdd or not? Will you deem them to be muslim unless and until the shaykh of your choice conveys to you in writing that they are not muslims? If someone insults the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) right in front of you - will you deem him a blasphemer right away? or will you write to your shaykh and wait till he issues a fatwa against the person?" If you say the former then tahir's case, after it has been made clear, is no different.
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  18. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    I think something was missed - for I was being sarcastic: every "Sunni" follows Hussam ul Haramayn and he does not ask it to be re-verified by contemporaries.

    Agreed. Someone needs to take up this NOBLE task.

    of course NOT!!!!!

    you missed the point brother: they must answer in full, with complete honesty considering the BLATANT Kufr of Tahir; why give an incomplete answer, that befuddles the awaam? the answer from DI makes you think that Tahir is just "non-Sunni" (so he is still a Muslim in layman's terms), but NOT a Murtad (which he actually is).

    So, the awaam will think it is perfectly OK, to call upon others to do shirk, call Christians as Momins - and the only result is that you become a non-sunni (but you still remain a Muslim) - astaghferullah.

    For how long will this confusion persist and who is responsible for it??

    I have addressed it in the previous paragraphs.

    Is it not ridiculous that in matters of Open Kufr - such as that committed by Tahir Jhangvi - that someone should say "I will follow only when so-and-so gives a fatwa" ? - we have already seen detailed fatwas of riddah on this dajjal, and yet we are asking for verification?

    but on another note, and as brother abu Hasan rightly pointed out - that when asked, it is OBLIGATORY for the scholar to answer honestly and without fear.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
  19. chisti-raza

    chisti-raza Veteran

    Brother, HaqBahu that was not directed towards you :).
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  20. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    It is simple. Taj ush-Shariah is undoubtly one of the leading Sunni Ulama in India.
    But there is still a huge public that doesn't specifically follow Taj ush-Shariah.
    But they follow for example Ulama of their area, or that are attached to their Pir group,
    or then ones that appear more on tv etc. So if there are more Ulama that give the same
    ruling, it will be accepted by more people.
    This is not to say thatTaj ush-Shariah doesn't have any influence.
    But if other Ulama follow Taj ush-Shariah in this, it will obviously have more effect.

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