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Discussion in 'Miscellany' started by snaqshi, Nov 17, 2014.
Brother, I have no idea what you are on about.
More Ulama of Pakistan, India and UK need to give either attestation to earlier fatawa (like the one of Taj ush-Shariah)
or write their own fatwa regarding him. Otherwise it won't have an effect on the wider public.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
0:00-4:20, specifically, 4:00-4:20, where he talks about tickets for the Prophet sallahu alayhi was salam (nauzzubillah), This is where Dr Padri Sahib deviated from ahle sunnat and reason for his Emience Hazoor Ghazaali Dowraan Shaykh ul Hadeeth Sayyed Sahib Qibla alayhi rehma stating in Lahore that Dr Sahib was Ghumrah.
Point that i was getting at is that there are a number of opinions regarding dr padri ranging from him being batreen ghumrah to those that side on takfir, so why do certain individuals display or have a predisposition towards bashing, labellings, maligning and insulting others who choose or follow a position that differs from theirs when there is an absence of ijma3 present on an issue?
I find brother Abdul Qadir's comments "in OUR TIMES, FOR TAHIR'S CASE - we are woefully short of a concerted effort to properly declare him a murtad - leaving the awam in limbo, and vulnerable to his dajjaliyat - this is the point" interesting, since according to his taHqeeq the awaam is in "limbo", why anyone feels they have a right to bash DI for saying he is "Ghumrah", which is the position of the Mufti Azam pakistan (last time i checked), I find strange.
Ulama like Sayyid Turabul Haqq Shah Sahib have been active and have already made public declarations against Padri. So there is a difference.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
hit the nail on the head...........
the quoted fatwa is dated 6 december 2005
this was before wembley and many more kufriyat
in those days, that's all that was said about him by most Sunni ulema
he called christians "believers" and became murtad after that afaik
now, post-wembley, a new 2015 fatwa declaring him as a murtad and dajjal needs to be issued by DI, as well as other Sunnis (aka Barelwis) because of this shaytan's abuse of the "Qadiri" title.
no, but for THAT TIME, enough contemporaries signed it.
we also don't have all the contemporaries signing and endorsing Fatawa Alamgiri
in OUR TIMES, FOR TAHIR'S CASE - we are woefully short of a concerted effort to properly declare him a murtad - leaving the awam in limbo, and vulnerable to his dajjaliyat - this is the point.
it's not about establishing this or that person or institute's Sunniyat as much as it is about safeguarding the awam.
so then you're happy with all that has been done in regards to spreading information in the awam about tahir's kufriyat?
and then why do you have issues with DI's fatwa because we don't need a fatwa from everyone for everything? DI is no different to the other Sunnis of pakistan, in whose documented rebuttals, you won't see them going beyond 'gumrah'
i'm staggered by your stance brother. on the one hand you talk about DI dodging the issue about principles of deen, on the other hand, you say this.
are we getting signatures on Hussam ul Haramayn from each & every contemporary scholar?
then & only then do we classify him as an Ahle Sunnah scholar?
or only then do we say, "yes, Hussam ul Haramayn is correct because this & that contemporary scholar has attested, signed and sealed it"?
get the picture???
we do not need a fatwa / attestation from everyone for everything.
that's great brother and i know about it full well.
what i am talking about is a document with his signature and seal. either his own fatwa, or a written endorsement of Tajush Shari3ah's and other's fatawa of takfeer.
back in 2012, i tried very hard to at least get the latter (not a direct fatwa, but just a one liner endorsement with signature on the indian fatawa) out of Darul Uloom Amjadia, but all i got was something VERBAL along the lines of 'it's common knowledge we love and respect Tajush Shari3ah. he's our elder. his fatwa will automatically deemed to be our fatwa' (i wanted the same thing in written with an Amjadia stamp on it, in the very least, but didn't get it)
and to be fully honest, the Amjadia mufti saab i spoke to wasn't being diplomatic and misleading like tahir or trying to pull a smart one on me. haasha lillah.
he said it openly and candidly about the situation in pakistani politics and mafia and gundagardi and anarchy and western support for tahir, local munaafiqeen and all that, and that's why the ulema's reluctance in issuing a document with a stamp and seal to save the Sunni awam from further harm, anarchy etc.
but i digress. i fear more harm will come to them if they don't take a solid stand against tahir.
it's great that they teach their students about his heresies in majalis and gatherings etc. but they have to issue a tehreer.
Brother, Shah Sahib has OPENLY condemned Padri and has openly supported the fatawa of the Akabir.
i never said he gives dodgy answers.
brother, being vocal in speeches and refuting in majalis etc. is different from an established tehreer, a documented, signed and sealed fatwa - from himself, from his institute. verbally saying 'we support Tajush Shari3ah's fatwa' is one thing. issuing his own fatwa is something else. or issuing a statement that we endorse Tajush Shari3ah's fatwa and agree with it 100% is also something else.
i'm talking here about their OWN tehreer's on their own letterheads, with their own signatures, stamps and seals - from pakistani ulema
in the very least they should put their signatures and a one liner 'we support and endorse this fatwa 100%' on the few existing fatawa that we do have.
what you talk about has been going on since the 80's, verbal refutations and being blasted for diyat issue, being blasted for christmas celebrations etc.
it's about time these efforts are consolidated and coordinated and a Hussam ul Haramaym part 2 is issued with a 100+ signatures attesting to tahir as a murtad dajjal.
sorry, but on this fitna-e-tahir, the efforts of indian ulema (as a group) are bad, the efforts of pakistani ulema are worse!
Sayyid Shah Turabul Haqq has been very vocal against Padri. That is well known and he pulls no punches. Even here in South Africa, he openly refuted Padri and has openly said that he supports the fatawa of Sayyidi Tajush Shari'ah and Allamah Ziaul Mustafa Sahib [may Allah Ta'ala protect them].
then, I strongly suspect, they'll remain waiting forever.
Mawlana ilyas sahib is not a little baby, hes accompanied the old ulama and knows exactly how things work. He has muftian e kiraam with him very often, i think they advice him well enough.
Brother abdal qadir, when has mawlana ilyas qadri ever been asked a question and a dodgy answer been given..
please do mention this to Mawlana Ilyas sahib and ask in clear unambiguous terms why a strange fatwa is given on tahir which seems to suggest that his antics are not riddah (the question asks if tahir is a Sunni, and the answer says he is a gumrah). if the mentioned fatwa was given before his wembley and other open apostasy gigs, then a new one needs to be issued after it.
i had mentioned on the other thread -
pakistani politics & its related mafias
tahir's support from other western and arab zanadiq
tahir's support from foreign governments
we need to be consistent in our approach to pakistan and fitna-e-tahir
others also need to ask anyone who they can
why has Shah Turabul Haq sahib or Darul Uloom Amjadia not issued a fatwa of kufr against him?
What about Allama Liaqath Hussein Azhari sahib?
Muzaffar Shah sahib?
Kaukab Noorani sahib? yes, he doesn't issue fatawa, but the awam listen to him and he can still clarify about why tahir's actions constitute kufr
and other big names of pakistani Sunniyat.
why do some of these scholars not protest against ary-qtv adamantly airing tahir's lectures, misleading the awam into thinking that tahir is a Sunni?
Allahu a3lam, maybe these people are waiting for a large scale issuance of fatawa from india, before they join the bandwagon, due to pakistani political and anarchy reasons.
my personal gut feeling says that the fitnah will only grow worse if they don't issue open rulings against his riddah. yes pakistan is going thru political turmoil and they can't promote anarchy, but the alternative is far worse. they need to issue a ruling against tahir no matter what the political situation is.
tahir's biggest apostasy is his wembley gig. not all the ulema know english. responsible & trusted community leaders should communicate clearly to the ulema what tahir has done at wembley. though by now most are already aware.
more fatawa need to come out of india too. also in much more greater details.
Is it against tahir jhangvi, does it give the fatwa of kufr or gumrahiyat.
Maulana Abu Dawud Muhammad Sadiq
I haven't read the book, just had a quick flick through the contents right now.