Istigātha at a distance

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Tariq Owaisi, Nov 8, 2023.

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  1. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Abu Hasan, what he said is one of the positions of Ahl al Sunnah on that hadith? That is very strong language and condemnation.
    Whoever these people are, their apostasy/innovation was kept from the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam is a position from the positions of the people of the sunnah. In fact if you say that the Prophet SallAllahu alaihi wa sallam did know these people were apostates then that's more problematic because Allah and His Messenger have been quoted.
    Same if he takes knowing some of the ghaib position, a great amount but not everything etc etc
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i think we all have seen our share of people who cite translations and cannot cite the hadith in Arabic wording. fools who have never read Bukhari or Muslim cover to cover will talk about "it's not found in any of the 6 major books"

    or people who will literally and admittedly not know of a hadith, and 10 seconds after YOU tell them of it, will offer you shuruh for it

    i remember this moron at a former workplace. was arguing with me, and he had never read or heard of the hadith of the blind man until i told him of it. 5 seconds later, he was teaching me the ahkam he derived from it with "mere mutabiq is hadith se yeh thabit hota hai ke... ". besharmi ki bhi ek hadd hoti hai. that's like a 7 year old giving his teacher a lecture on environmental protection right after she teaches him what environment means

    next time around he tried something similar, i told him, 'you call yourself Hanafi right? tell me what Ibn Abidin and Fatawa Alamgiri say on this matter. it's not very hard to find and in fact on this issue theres no ikhtilaf between us and devbandis. he tells me shamelessly, 'what do they say?', and i reply, 'you made the claim, you cite scholars and tell me. why should i do your homework for you? you see what Hanafi ulama say and tell me your take on it'
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  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    kamil of ibn al-athir, v2/p397; events of year 18 and the great famine "aam al-ramadah"

    kamil, v2p397.png
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  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    did they say it is haram or makruh to do it after he passed away?

    i used to think anyone with basic knowledge of hadith such as the arbayin would know these things. there is a basic hadith:

    arbayin nawawi: #9 : do not ask too many questions - just take what's given and keep quiet assuming the rest is allowed.

    this is explained further in another hadith

    arbayin nawawi: #30: Allah ta'ala did not say about many things - not because of forgetfulness, but out of mercy to you. meaning that which is not expressly forbidden is permitted.

    take the hadith of tawassul and the stupid question: "did the sahabah do it after the passing of the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam"?

    to give you context, sahabah were AWARE of this thing about before and after the passing and they got clarification from the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam himself. in a hadith from abu dawud, nasayi, ibn majah, darimi and bayhaqi in da'wat al-kabir, which imam nawawi said was sahih; [others said it may have illah, and a very minute defect].

    mishkat, 1361.png

    the hadith where the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: your salawat will be presented to me.
    the sahabah asked: "after you have passed away?"
    and he replied sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam: "Allah ta'ala has forbidden the earth to consume the bodies of Prophets".

    see mishkat, 1361; mirqat 3/409; haytami,5/219.

    in fat'h al-ilah of haytami:

    fathilah, v5p219.png

    Allah ta'ala has bestowed upon them honour by preserving their blessed bodies - an unnatural occurence, a miracle.
    so also Allah ta'ala has preserved their hearing and they hear the salat of muslims presented to them.


    did the sahabah ask the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam: should we do this dua' of tawassul/istighatha after you have passed away?

    because if they felt that it would not be possible, they would have asked as in the above. and simply because they did not ask - as it is not reported anywhere - it is understood that they didn't even think about it. until of course small minded wahabis and their blind followers came up with their petty objections.

    so asking: 'did the sahabah practise after his passing'? is a stupid question.

    in hadith of mishkat #1366 vide ibn majah:

    mishkat, 1366.png

    ibn hajar al-haytami in its commentary cites another hadith, albeit weak:

    fathilah, v5p225.png

    tabarani has a weak report: "no slave [of Allah] sends salawat upon me - except his voice reaches me wherever he might be"

    after which al-haytami explains that near the rawDah he hears salawat without any means and replies; whereas when salawat is presented from far, it is delivered to him. this does not negate calling upon him for help.

    fathilah, v5p225b.png

    now people can whine and squirm and find 1001 excuses to not accept. the disease is in the heart, not in the mind as the brother pointed out (citing a shaykh).

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.

    arbayin n9.png

    arbayin n30.png
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2023
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i strongly recommend a study of alahazrat's rasayil that explain the basic usul of ahkam. one does not need proof to say 'halal' or 'permissible'. but one needs to furnish solid proof to say that it is haram or forbidden or against the sunnah or opposed to shariah, etc.

    and then there is delusion.

    for example, the delusion of explaining the "real" meaning and 'true import' of ahadith to muhaddithin who wrote expansive commentaries on hadith! especially by those people who have probably never even read a compilation of mishkat end-to-end.


    tell me how many commentaries can you quote for this hadith? don't act as if you are the greatest muhaddith after ibn hajar.

    the hadith clearly tells us that the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam knew about it. it is explicit enough - and only morons don't understand that. and there are many other narrations that clearly tell us that he spoke of the disagreements between sahabah AND what would happen.

    this also refutes rawafid who claim that almost all sahabah save few, became murtad after RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. because he himself sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "this son of mine is a sayyid - he will make peace between to warring factions of my ummah" among other hadith.

    it appears as if you have never heard of the name hudhayfah ibn yaman raDi'Allah anhu!

    hazrat umar would wait for hazrat hudhayfah in a funeral and if he didn't pray, hazrat umar would not pray. often he would ask him whether his name was in the list of the 12 people informed by RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    so hazrat hudhayfah knows and the Prophet doesn't know. excellent powers of reasoning.

    because remember - those will be the people who will NOT get shafa'ah - and the shafa'ah of RasulALlah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is open for all muslims, including pathetic and lowly sinners like us.

    one cannot claim that there were MORE and the prophet did not know about them - if they make this idiotic claim, they should provide proof for 'MORE' or that the Prophet did not know about them. al-iyadhu billah.

    this is not sound reasoning - it is abject ignorance. let me explain:
    Allah ta'ala said in surah muhammad, s47:v30

    qital, v29-31.png

    what is explicit and is known is that Allah ta'ala says: "if We Wish We can show them to you and you would recognise them by their marks"

    of course, you can harour delusions of knowing arabic idioms and tafsir better than ibn abbas and qurtubi, but for us we trust their word more than yours. imam qurtubi quotes hazrat ibn abbas raDi'Allah anhu that "we would show" actually means: "We will inform you soon"


    "and if We Wished we would have shown you.." that is, we would give you their identity [lit. we would give you knowledge thereof]

    ibn abbas raDi'Allahu anhu said: "and indeed Allah ta'ala gave him the knowledge (disclosed their identity) in surah al-bara'ah.

    the idiom of the arabs: "i will show you what i will do" - meaning "i will inform you - i will let you know".

    and thus is the verse: "of which Allah shewed you" [surah nisa, v105] - that is: "informed you, gave you the knowledge thereof.

    imam nasafi in his tafsir of the same verse:

    s47v30 nasafi.png

    and from anas raDi'Allahu anhu: "nothing was hidden from RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam after this verse was revealed - about a SINGLE person among the hypocrites. he would know them by their marks."

    imam baghawi in his ma'alim al-tanzil:


    and from anas raDi'Allahu anhu: "nothing was hidden from RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam after this verse was revealed - about a SINGLE person among the hypocrites. he would know them by their marks."

    ibn kathir in the tafsir of the same verse:

    s47v30 ibnkthir.png

    wakiy narrated to us: narrated to us sufyan: from salamah from iyaD ibn iyaD from his father [i.e. iyaD] from abu mas'ud uqbah ibn amr raDi'Allahu anhu and he said:

    RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam gave a sermon in which he praised Allah and glorified Him and said: "indeed there are hypocrites among you. whosover i name, then let him stand up."

    and then he said: "stand up fulan [so-and-so], stand up fulan, stand up fulan" until he named 36 men and then he said: "Indeed from you or among you..fear Allah"

    these are other than the 12 disclosed to hazrat hudhayfah.

    but yeah, one can pretend to know better than all of them.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    dua is made ONLY to Allah ta'ala.
    we call upon the Messenger of Allah sallahu alayhi wa sallam for tawassul. istighatha is a form of tawassul. only idiots don't understand this.

    proof? from sahih hadith. we don't want interpretations.

    where? which? is it absolute? is it only

    d-uh. sabah al-noor.

    the main problem is this differentiation. juhala who have no understanding of hadith, qur'an, tafsir, fiqh and balaghah make this artificial distinction and tie themselves in knots. there is no cure for stupidity.

    awkward knots. low intelligence. inability to understand basic concepts. ignorance of basic premises.
    of course, stupidity.


    if you received amazing help at the rawdah - assuming you asked for it - what prevents you from calling from afar? unless you have the rigid block thinking of some people who cannot step out of the lines drawn by wahabi/deobandi simpletons.

    if you can ask for help at the rawdah, and you received it. you can ask for help from afar - and you WILL receive it. in sha'Allah.

    when one doesn't have a sound education, ability to grasp basic principles and keeps picking statements randomly and throwing about without a clear understanding of how istinbat works is the reason illiterate foolish people argue as if their knowledge of arabic, hadith, interpretation is more than that of the likes of imam taqiyuddin subki, haytami, qari, suyuti, zabidi, dihlawi and many others.

    morons who think they understand implication of language and implication of ahadith, better than the muhaddithin mentioned above should look in hte mirror, pause and reflect: 'seriously? how can i be so stupid?'

    وداء الجهل ليس له طبيب
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2023
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  7. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    How does the wording change anything?
  8. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    Have you read the ḥadīth of Mālik al-Dār it clearly states "Ya Rasūlullāh Istasq li-Ummatika" O Messenger of Allāh [ﷺ] ask for rain for your Ummah.
  9. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Dua is to be made to Allah Ta'ala, I think purely calling the Messenger of Allah Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam on a regular basis without pressing need would be against his sunnah.
    There is the hadith 'help is not sought with me' and 'if you ask ask Allah'
    Now..all forms of 'istigatha' are like the hadith of the blind man, and narration of Malik ad dar - they are in fact tawassul.
    There is issues of Adab, both in how a person calls the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasalam and perhaps why they are not making dua.

    The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam is shown our deeds and prays for us.

    Tawassul of the Prophets is for miracles. Even the blind man was told "it is better if you are patient" then to have his eyes restored.. And the Al maida of the Christians.. they are still eating well but we know Hazrat Isa alaihis Salam warned them straight away to fear Allah for asking. It is better to avoid asking for miracles. Asking for forgiveness like the athar of Al utbi is like a miracle but it's not something we can afford to leave out, it's essential.

    Barakat from the person and possessions of the Prophets is beneficial. Again same Aqeedah as sahaba.

    So if 'adab of dua' is that we call Allah, and to the Messenger Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam we send Salam, there is not a lot that needs istigatha from afar. It should be what's known as tawassul (unless you are in state where you are meeting the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasalam away from Rawdah Mubarak or some other state?, we can't limit interactions others may have)

    Istigatha is calling the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam in dua, and the dua is to Allah hence the hadith of the blind man is istigatha and enough to differentiate the ahlus sunnah position from the najdi position as its a worse form of shirk in their (original) view.

    This is why istigatha reports, in the way you are asking, are not common from the early generation. Our Istigatha is in dua, in seeking the help of Allah Most merciful.

    (Personally I have received amazing help at the Rawdah Mubarak!)
  10. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Veteran

    As brother Noori said, this was a specific incident.

    The are other Hadith such as the one narrated by Hadrat Abu Zar Ghaffari Radi Allahu Anhu regarding the Prophet ﷺ being informed about everything that has happened and that is to happen in this world.

    Apart from this. There are narrations where the deeds of the ummah are presented to the Prophet ﷺ regularly. So for you to bring this hadith and quote to day the Prophet ﷺ did not know what happend after He ﷺ left this world physically is gibberish.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2023
  11. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Its a good question to ask in many many ways. It's especially relevant to our times due to other dawahs
    The question itself demonstrates an advanced learning and practicing student of knowledge!
  12. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Isn't there a hadith that the Rasool صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم was given knowledge of everything except five things? Therefore, the Messenger صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم knows who will call upon him صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, when they will call upon him صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم and why they will call upon him صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم
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  13. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    "Legitimate" according to what metric?
  14. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Brother I want you to know there is nothing wrong with your views on this subject. You don't have to do istigatha, and your enquiry about is absolutely legitimate. Like you said you don't say shirk, you didn't even say bidah and your not personally in the 'haal' to do it - fair enough brother.
  15. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Shaykh Gibril F Haddad writes: "Benefit: Al-Zarqani in Sharh al-Muwatta' (1:98) mentions that Ibn Shakir narrates in his Manaqib al-Shafiʿi with his chain to Yunus ibn ʿAbd al-Aʿla from his teacher al-Shafiʿi that the latter said his teacher Imam Malik only regretted including one hadith in the Muwatta', namely, the hadith of the lake-fount. The reason for this, and Allah knows best, is that Malik typically hated for some people to be potentially confused or, worse, misled by certain hadiths connected to doctrine; in this particular case, with regard to either the Prophet's God-given foreknowledge or the honor of his blessed Companions which the Qur'an, the Sunna, and the Consensus made categorical and obligatory knowledge."
    Shaykh Gibril also writes: "Should we hold the view that the Prophet ﷺ upon him blessings and peace, was only prophesying the general knowledge that this will take place but does not, indeed, know the personal details of those involved, hence he calls them "My Companions" literally, the answer is that the reply of the angels refers to the Murtadds of the Umma whose ridda was kept hidden from the Prophet ﷺ upon him blessings and peace, so as not to harm him. This interpretation qualifies the meaning of the hadith "Hayati khayrun lakum" and thus his knowledge in the grave excludes ridda and the murtadds as this would pain the Prophet ﷺ upon him blessings and peace, to no end.
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  16. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    Apparently both wahabis and rafidis love to quote this hadith and give their own batil interpretation of it to promote their jahalat. The rafidis quote it(and misinterpret it) to claim that all sahaba are not jannati, and as we can see a wahabi is now misinterpreting it to promote his own ignorant view on istighatha.

    It's relevant to note that Imam Malik had regretted including this hadith in the Muwatta because rafidis misinterpreted it to speak against the sahaba. Wahabis should ponder over that.
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  17. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    If you do not deem the istigatha to be shirk, then ḥadīth of Mālik al-Dar should be sufficient for you, do you deem it to be shirk from a far but not close?
  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    btw, this was already answered.

  19. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    this is ad hominem, you were never in, just another wahabi in a new disguise.

    you can escape because you don't have answers to explicit ahadith
  20. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    They were never absolute is my point, otherwise he (sallallahu alayhi wasalam) would have known about other things. The hadith I quoted is explicit enough.

    And we are getting off topic, did the companions request the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasalam) for help from a far after he passed away?
    I previously said I am not a wahabi. I am not saying istigatha is shirk. I am just asking for explicit textual sources. Then you say an ad hominem and say I am another wahabi. I havent even said its bidah.

    If this is the attitude of barelwis, perhaps this is why I see people leaving barelwism in multitudes.


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