Istigātha at a distance

It's calling upon creations that are invisible to one's eyes, which as per wahabis used to be shirk. But some of them now don't consider calling upon angels( or even jinns) for help as shirk, because it has been brought to their notice that that not only is the hadith regarding that sahih but it's also authentically reported that Imam Ahmed used to act upon it. So sunnis haven't preached in vain, I guess. You also have wahabi influenced folks like yasir qadhi and haqiqatjou, which also means all their followers, who do not consider istighatha shirk.

There was a time when wahabis used to consider the mere act of calling upon somone shirk if the one called upon was not right in front of you, hence a ultra wahabi would refrain from saying ayyuhan nabi in tashahhud. Things have changed a lot since then.

 

I was alluding to that when I told him about the narrations regarding ya ibadallah Ainooni.

I presumed that hassan0123 was aware of those but he didn't comment upon it when brought up.

 

I am not a scholar, but this discussion did remind me of these Hadith and practices of the Sahaba and pious predecessors

• يا عباد الله، دلوني على الطريق (O servants of Allah, guide me to the path)

Attributed to Imam Ahmad

• يا عباد الله أغيثوني (O servants of Allah, help me)

Narrated by 'Utba bin Ghazwan
Found in Al-Mu'jam al-Kabir by Imam Tabarani
Found in Majma'uz Zawaid
Found in Al-Adhkar by Nawawi
Found in Al-Hisnul Hasin
Found in Al-Fututhatur Rabbaniyyah
Found in Al-Hirzuth Thamin
Mentioned in Shu'abul Iman

• يا عباد الله احبسوا (O servants of Allah, hold back)

Found in Musnad Abu Ya'la
Found in Ibn al-Sunni's Amal al-Yawm wa al-Laylah
Found in Musnad Ahmad
Found in Al-Mu'jam al-Kabir by Al-Tabarani

• يا عباد الله احبسوا علي دابتي (O servants of Allah, hold back my animal for me)

Found in Ibn al-Sunni's Amal al-Yawm wa al-Laylah
Found in Al-Mu'jam al-Kabir
Found in Musnad Abu Ya'la

• إذا أصاب أحدكم عرجة بأرض فلاة فليناد أعينوا عباد الله (If one of you gets injured in a deserted land, let him call out: Aid, servants of Allah)

Narrated by al-Bazzar
O slaves of Allah show me the way
Reported as Imam Ahmad's personal practice in Masaa'il Al-Imaam Ahmad by his son 'Abdullah

• يا عبادَ اللهِ أغيثوني (O servants of Allah, help me)

Narrated by 'Utba bin Ghazwan in Al-Mu'jamul Kabir by Al-Tabarani

• إن لله ملائكة في الأرض سوى الحفظة يكتبون ما يسقط من ورق الشجر فإذا أصابت أحدكم عرجة بأرض فلاة فليناد يا عباد الله أعينوني (Indeed, Allah has angels on earth besides the guardians who write down every falling leaf. If one of you suffers a cramp/gets stranded in a deserted place, let him cry out, "O servants of Allah, help me!")

Narrated by al-Bazzar from Ibn Abbas

• إذا انفلتت دابة أحدكم بأرض فلاة فليناد يا عباد الله احبسوا علي دابتي فإن لله في الأرض حاضرا سيحبسه عليكم (If the animal of anyone of you runs away in a deserted land, he should call: 'O servants of Allah, stop my animal for me, for Allah has present (beings) on earth who will stop it for you.')

Mentioned in Al-Adhkar by Al-Nawawi, quoting Ibn al-Sunni
Narrated by Abu Ya'la in his Musnad
Narrated by Ibn al-Sunni in Amal al-Yawm wa al-Laylah
Narrated by Al-Tabarani in Al-Mu'jam al-Kabir

• إذا ضل أحدكم شيئا أو أراد أحدكم غوثا وهو بأرض ليس بها أنيس فليقل يا عباد الله أغيثوني يا عباد الله أغيثوني فإن لله عبادا لا نراهم (If anyone of you loses something or seeks help in a land where there is no one to help, he should say: 'O servants of Allah, help me! O servants of Allah, help me!' For Allah has servants whom we do not see.)

Narrated by Al-Tabarani in Al-Mu'jam al-Kabir
Mentioned in Majma'uz Zawaid

• يا عباد الله أعينوني (O servants of Allah, aid me)

Mentioned in a narration from Al-Tabarani

• يا عباد الله احبسوا (O servants of Allah, hold back)

Narrated by Abu Ya'la in his Musnad

• يا عباد الله أغيثونا (O servants of Allah, help us)

Mentioned as a variation in Al-Bayhaqi's Shu'ab al-Iman as a saying of Ibn 'Abbas

• يا عباد الله أعينوا عباد الله رحمكم الله (O servants of Allah, help the servants of Allah, may Allah have mercy on you)

Mentioned in a narration from Ibn Abbas

Here one could argue that these narrations don't explicitly mention anything about farness or distance. (However, considering the context in which these practices occurred, often when someone was lost or in a deserted area, one might infer that the calls were made without regard to the proximity of the helpers, implying distance was not considered a prohibitive factor) nor do these narrations specify whether help is sought only from angels or good jinn, and not from any Wali of Allah. Conversely, the opposite isn't explicitly stated either. This is just my non-scholarly opinion.

 

Out of curiosity, what's your conviction?

 

You wish I was a Madani Munna lol.
You call it disingenuous questioning because you can't answer. You're supposed to be a Barelvi Talib al-Ilm, I expect better tut tut. Please ask Sh Naveed Jameel these questions if you want.

It must hurt that Barelvis awaam are becoming Wahabi. It's OK, it must hurt.

Nope the burden is proof is not on me. Its on you lot because your conception of Istigatha doesn't have any.

 

If you don't want to take me from fair enough but at least take from Imam al-Subki. In his book, 'Shifa al-Siqam', Tawassul is of 3 types.

(All excerpts are below)

1) The seeker of the need asks Allah by the rank of the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم

2) The one in need ask the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم to make Dua on his behalf

3) The person asks the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم for that specifc matter as he is able to be a means to get that thing by asking Allah and interceding to him. Imam al-Subki says this is the same as the second type but only the expression has changed.

Then he concludes by saying there is no problem calling this Tawassul, Tashaffu, Istigatha etc because they all mean the same.

 

No, you’re not a Wahabi. You’re a Madani Munna who has a split personality order. Stop trying to follow Engineer Mirza with your disingenuous questioning.

When Muslims are becoming Atheists day by day, you seem to worry more about “Barelvis” losing numbers even though the “Barelvis” and the Ahl al Sunnah are all under one banner. “Barelvis” do not need numbers.

Regarding Istigatha, the burden of proof is upon you to prove a Wali cannot hear from far away.

 

Ok I will

Hassan_0123 please help us from close proximity not more than 100m as there is no qati evidence that Allah has given you the ability to help me from afar.

 

Can I say a few things?
Suppose there are is no evidence from the qur'an and sunnah where someone asked a wali for help from afar.
But this is from the possible, meaning a wali being granted to power to hear or the message being conveyed to him.
On the assumption of this possibility and hope and husn al dhann that Allah "may" have granted a certian power to hear (not having certitude), or that out message may be conveyed to them (not having certitude), someone calls out to a wali hoping that they will hear their call (not having certitude), what is wrong with this?

 

[DELETED]
Cry more. Barelvis are losing numbers every single day. Every single day. Huge numbers.

 

Stupidity has no cure, unfortunately

 

Can I please ask what the hukm is for someone who denies that awliya can hear from afar. Is it from daruriat e ahlu sunnah?

 

.

 

All these huge paragraphs and 'refutations' but nothing of substance. Ajeeb

 

Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wasallam told us to stay with the majority, the firqa e najiya. It is clear that the sunnis in the modern times (all of them not just in the sub continent) consider calling awliya from afar to be a valid position. I already posted a few examples, such as shaykh abu adam and shaykh abdul aziz khateeb. The jama'ah accepting something is an evidence in and of itself.

 

"The reality is, most ahādīth are zanni, not qat‘i. If you’re going to say zanni texts don’t obligate action, then you’ve basically just thrown out like 80% of Islamic rulings — because the majority of fiqh is based on zanni evidence. It’s not qat‘i, but it still obligates ‘amal (practical implementation)."

"And secondly — anyone who wants to object to these things needs to actually be on the level of the scholars who set these principles in the first place. You can’t just show up and start poking holes in their work without having equivalent depth in knowledge and evidence.

It’s like someone criticizing how an engineer built a house — using actual engineering principles — and the guy objecting barely studied a couple of random chapters on construction. You can’t just collapse the whole building unless you bring solid principles and foundational arguments from within the same science.

Otherwise, what are we doing? Life becomes a free-for-all where anyone feels entitled to speak on any field, whenever they want. Total chaos."

 

but why did you say

Doesn't this mean that you accept calling to a wali from afar with the mindset that my call reaching them is not based on certitude but rather dhann?
Regarding it being qatii, I don't think anyone here said it is qatii.

 

I don't have a problem with Imam Ahmad Rida Khan's position on Ilm al Ghayb because he provides evidence.

Noor - there is evidence.

Hazir and Nazir - there is evidence.

Etc...

But when it comes to your idea of Istigatha, there's nothing. You are all acting like it's a tenet of faith. Just admit it's a extremely weak and dhanni position and move on. It's not a gotcha moment.

 

As Mawlana Abu Hasan frequently mentions:
"stupidity has no cure, unfortunately."

I showed @Hassan_0123 post and questions to a Sunni Arab Alim, (non-Barelwi btw) and this is what he said:

دك اسوي بحث لواحد ما بعتقد بالاستغاثه
وهو عشان اخلص واتعب ويقول لي بالاخر هذا ظني مش قطعي
اساسا الاحاديث الاحاديه الظنيه توجب العمل بالاجماع ولا توجب الجزم بالاعتقاد لانها لا تخلص من توهم او ضعف الخلق حال النقل
اصلا الاحاديث الظنيه كثير جدا جدا وايضا اذا لم توجب العمل وجب اسفاط 80 بالمائه من الاحكام التي توجب العمل وكونها ليست قطعيه ولكنها ظنيه ولكنها توجب العمل بالاحكام

ثانيا المعترض يجب ان يملك من الادله والقوه في العلم توازي العلماء الذي وضعوا هذه القواعد حتى يستطيع الرد عليهم وانتقادهم
مثلا لو شكك رجل في فعل مهندس هندس بيت بقواعد الهندسه وجاء رجل درس مساله اى مسالتين في هندسه بيت لا يستطيع ان يهدم البيت او يوقع البيت الا اذا جاء من القواعد والاسس واصول الهندسه
ما يستطيع ان يثبت نظريته والا اصبحت الحياه شوربه يستطيع كل شخص ان يتكلم في اي علم شاء ومتى شاء

 

Watch this and weep



A (ex) barelvi youth becomes a Wahabi. Look at the stuff he's confused on. He's probably one of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, who have moved away from Barelvism. So next time someone asks you to provide proof for your position, please do.
You need to prioritise and prevent more youth from becoming Wahabi. Not fighting and bickering over petty issues.