Istigātha at a distance

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Tariq Owaisi, Nov 8, 2023.

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  1. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    yeah, but you know it in this world, huh!
  2. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    we are not angry at you, we are just exposing you that you are another wahabi who is trying to prove the same old filth with the same old question-"did sahabah do it"

    how sound is your reasoning is now very obvious.
  3. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    are you serious? Allāh is telling the Prophet you dont know they did after you left. He is being informed on Judgement day. The hadith is explicit. this isnt deobandi or wahabi logic. its just sound reasoning. and I want to do istigatha, all I want is explicit proof. And you guys keep getting angry at me. This is why people are leaving barelwism in numbers and heading to the so called salafis.

    and the hadith of the blind is tawassul. saying it isnt different than istigatha needs a proofs since they are clearly difference (one is the adresss is being made to Allāh and the other to other than Allāh).
  4. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    so you believe that after the demise these mu'jizaat of seeing, listening, and catching from afar were revoked, any explicit hadith about it.
  5. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    is it an addendum to your rule?
  6. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    subhan Allah, you even don't seem to apply common sense, rasulAllah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem is telling, in this world, about a specific incident with complete details that what will happen in the hereafter, but you believe that he alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem will forget when his status will be known to every person. the context is very clear, and if you combine many other narrations of this hadith you will know that this will be a sarcastic exchange to increase the dismay of the munafiqeen, otherwise how would they be able to reach the pond.

    you are demonstrating a pure deobandi and wahabi logic.

    on the other hand you are ignoring explicit sahih ahadith to which you do not have any answer, and we have shown you the hadith of the blind.

    your rule, which has no basis, that it can only be proven when there is a hadith about sahaba doing it is nothing but stupidity, and a wahabi logic. when rasulAllah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem himself is telling that he sees, listens, and catches things at distances beyond imagination, when he explicitly says prophets are alive after their demise, when he explicitly teaches istighatha to his companions, you ignore them and demand a proof from shabah if they did.

    Also, why only limiting to the companions, don't you accept the aqidah and statements of the the imams.
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  7. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    I dont deem istigatha shirk, and I dont deem it impossible at a distance. all I want is an explicit hadith that clearly shows that the Sahabah asked assistance from the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasalam) at a distance from his qabr. Sure its possible, but so far it seems that a narration cannot be found for it.

    I dont know too much about deobandi elders or barelwi elders except what each side says about the others.
    the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasalam) being shown things from a far is certainly possible. but we know for certainty that he doesnt see or hear literally everything thats happening in the dunya since the hadith say:
    Narrated Ibn Al-Musaiyab:

    The companions of the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount and they will be driven away from it, and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge of what they innovated after you left: they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam).

    حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ صَالِحٍ، حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي يُونُسُ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ الْمُسَيَّبِ، أَنَّهُ كَانَ يُحَدِّثُ عَنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّبِيِّ، صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ يَرِدُ عَلَى الْحَوْضِ رِجَالٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِي فَيُحَلَّئُونَ عَنْهُ فَأَقُولُ يَا رَبِّ أَصْحَابِي‏.‏ فَيَقُولُ إِنَّكَ لاَ عِلْمَ لَكَ بِمَا أَحْدَثُوا بَعْدَكَ، إِنَّهُمُ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمُ الْقَهْقَرَى ‏"‏‏.‏ وَقَالَ شُعَيْبٌ عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ كَانَ أَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ يُحَدِّثُ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَيُجْلَوْنَ‏.‏ وَقَالَ عُقَيْلٌ فَيُحَلَّئُونَ‏.‏ وَقَالَ الزُّبَيْدِيُّ عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي رَافِعٍ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏

    Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6586

    So in his qabr, what is explicit is that he hears from close, and salams are conveyed to him from a far via the angels. is it possible that requests for assistance are conveyed to him as well? its possible. but since we know hears and sees somethings and doesnt hear or see other things, we need a text.
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    rasulAllah alaihi afdalus salat wat-tasleem sees from afar, bukhari، 1344

    حدثنا عبد الله بن يوسف حدثنا الليث حدثني يزيد بن أبي حبيب عن أبي الخير عن عقبة بن عامر أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم خرج يوما فصلى على أهل أحد صلاته على الميت، ثم انصرف إلى المنبر فقال إني فرط لكم، وأنا شهيد عليكم، وإني والله لأنظر إلى حوضي الآن، وإني أعطيت مفاتيح خزائن الأرض- أو مفاتيح الأرض- وإني والله ما أخاف عليكم أن تشركوا بعدي، ولكن أخاف عليكم أن
    تنافسوا فيها
    he alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem can catch things from afar, bukhari 748;

    حدثنا إسماعيل قال: حدثني مالك عن زيد بن أسلم عن عطاء بن يسار عن عبد الله بن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال خسفت الشمس على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فصلى، قالوا يا رسول الله، رأيناك تناول شيئا في مقامك،
    ثم رأيناك تكعكعت. قال: ((إني أريت الجنة، فتناولت منها عنقودا، ولو أخذته لأكلتم منه ما بقيت الدنيا
    rasulAllah sees and hears from afar, tirmizi 2482;

    حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مَنِيعٍ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو أَحْمَدَ الزُّبَيْرِيُّ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْرَائِيلُ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ الْمُهَاجِرِ عَنْ مُجَاهِدٍ عَنْ مُوَرِّقٍ عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: ((إِنِّي أَرَى مَا لاَ تَرَوْنَ وَأَسْمَعُ مَا لاَ تَسْمَعُونَ أَطَّتِ السَّمَاءُ وَحُقَّ لَهَا أَنْ تَئِطَّ مَا فِيهَا مَوْضِعُ أَرْبَعِ أَصَابِعَ إِلاَّ وَمَلَكٌ وَاضِعٌ جَبْهَتَهُ سَاجِدًا لِلَّهِ لَوْ تَعْلَمُونَ مَا أَعْلَمُ لَضَحِكْتُمْ قَلِيلاً وَلَبَكَيْتُمْ كَثِيرًا وَمَا تَلَذَّذْتُمْ بِالنِّسَاءِ عَلَى الْفُرُشِ وَلَخَرَجْتُمْ إِلَى الصُّعُدَاتِ تَجْأَرُونَ إِلَى اللَّهِ)). لَوَدِدْتُ أَنِّي كُنْتُ شَجَرَةً تُعْضَدُ.
    قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى: وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ وَعَائِشَةَ وَابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ وَأَنَسٍ. قَالَ: هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ. وَيُرْوَى مِنْ غَيْرِ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ أَنَّ أَبَا ذَرٍّ قَالَ لَوَدِدْتُ أَنِّي كُنْتُ شَجَرَةً تُعْضَدُ.
    Note that these ahadith are explicit in their physical and literal sense. in the hadith of hauD, see the emphasis, "by God, there is no doubt that I see my hauD now"

    in the second hadith his reach is physical, this part makes it very clear

    "ولو أخذته لأكلتم منه ما بقيت الدنيا"

    i.e. if i had plucked (the fruits) from jannah you would always eat from it until this world ends.

    in the hadith of tirmizi rasulAllah alaihi afDalus salaat wat-tasleem first warned that I see and hear what you don't see and hear, i,e, what he alaihi afDalus salaat wat-tasleem is going to tell them next is in the physical and literal sense, then he told alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem that he hears the cracking of the skies and sees that there isn't a tiny place in the skies where there is no angel prostrating to his Lord Allah All Mighty.

    but people think that he alaihi afDalus salaat wat-tasleem cannot see or hear from few meters or kms of distances.

  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Umar99 likes this.
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I had the same talk with a wahabi many years ago and the jahil said, that is all through technological means, not independent of technological means; where's the Nass that a means is granted to the Prophet 3alaihis salam, for the salam we know the malaikah carry it and present it, but we don't have proof for other calls/conversations from us reaching him. I was baffled by his stupidity and mentioned to a shaykh and he said what I hold on to this day - the disease is in the heart not the mind, or else the entire world could have accepted all the correct beliefs of Islam and Ahlus Sunnah.
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    وما رواه أبو نعيم عن حكيم بن حزام، بينما رسول الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم- في أصحابه؛ إذ قال لهم: "تسمعون ما أسمع"؟ قالوا: ما نسمع من شيء، قال: "إني لأسمع أطيط السماء، وما تلازم أن تئط, وما فيها موضع شبر إلا وعليه ملك ساجد أو قائم".
    abu nuaym narrates from hakim ibn hizam:

    RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was among his companions and he said: "do you hear what i hear?"

    they say:"we don't hear anything"

    he said: indeed i hear the groaning [or creaking] of the sky - it is necessary that it should creak. for there is not a space as much as a span's width upon which an angel is prostrating or standing"

    dumb idiots say: he cannot hear from far. he cannot hear in his blessed tomb.

    door o nazdik kay sun'nay walay woh kaan
    kaan la'al e karamat pay lakhon salam.
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  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that appears like a good cop-out.
    the question is: what do you say about the devbandis? do you consider them wahabis or not? do you respect their elders?

    or the more specific: do you consider the statements of the infamous four - thanawi, gangohi, nanotwi, ambhetwi - as kufr (the statements mentioned in husam al-haramayn).
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2023
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  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    how weak is the yaqin and how dense is the mind of a person who can comprehend and accept that human beings can hear from far via devices (telephone, tv, radio etc) HOWEVER, deems it impossible or shirk, for the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam or his loved ones to hear from afar - even if Allah ta'ala has granted them this power!

    when it is not impossible by aql - when it is commonly observed that such 'call from far' can be 'heard from afar' via devices - and when there is no naSS that proclaims that such a thing is impossible - then the hesitation is due to ignorance or stunted minds which cannot think beyond the grey lines drawn by literalist wahabi maulvis.

    many people, otherwise reasonable seem to be intimidated by these artificial distinctions and try to argue within the framework made by wahabis.

    instead of asking 'where is the proof' you must ask where is the proof that he cannot hear?

    sub'HanAllah, didn't he say: [narrated by abi dharr raDi'Allahu anhu - reported by tirmidhi, ibn majah, imam ahmad and hakim]

    إني أرى ما لا ترون, وأسمع ما لا تسمعون، أطَّت السماء وحق لها أن تئط، ليس فيها موضع أربع أصابع إلّا وملك واضع جبهته ساجدًا لله تعالى

    indeed, i see what you don't see; and i hear what you don't hear. the heaven creaks [or groan] and it is necessary that it should creak - for there is not a space of four fingers, where an angel has not placed his forehead prostrating to Allah ta'ala.

    in another hadith: "indeed, i hear the groaning of the heaven".


    in today's world, such a thing is not considered improbable by even literalists and materialists; astronomers talk about a 'cosmic background hum' - that appears as if people humming in a gathering.

    disclaimer: i am not saying this=that. i am not saying that this so-called cosmic hum is the same thing mentioned by RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    am just stating an example to illustrate the constraints of the human mind - coupled with the stunting of thinking due to modern education. something which may sound like a fairy tale and you may scoff at it, suddenly becomes reasonable and cogent if there is a 'scientific' explanation.

    do they challenge these 'discoveries'? how many people have actually seen/heard/experienced this? do they say: "it doesn't make sense. we simply cannot see or experience.."

  14. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    nice, at least you clearly stated about your inclinations.
    Ahlesaabiqoon likes this.
  15. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    Isnt the narration of Mālik al-Dar sufficient, it was authenticated by Ibn Ḥajar, Ibn Kathīr, al-Qastallani and many others. if the action itself has been permitted then it should not matter whether it is done from near or far
  16. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    I wouldnt say I am a deobandi or a barelwi.
  17. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    I am not a wahhabi. I am a Hanafi who is leaning towards the atharis (not the so called atharis/salafis) but have no issue with the asharis and maturidis. I believe Tawassul is fully permissible and recommended. As for istigatha after the passing of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasalam, I am a bit hesitant but do not say its shirk. Also since theres a hadith about istigatha in front of the qabr, I accept that. But I have not come across anything explicit in mentioning istigatha from afar; I have only seen that salams reach him. This is the only reason why I shared that classical scholars distinguished between near and far from the qabr, even if they held it to be permissible or not.
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  18. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Yes, I got it from their website
  19. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    You have asked a difficult question. I doubt you will receive a straight answer, if any.
  20. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

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