Mufakkir responds to Syed Irfan

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by Unbeknown, Oct 27, 2011.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Please read the comments relating to earth's motion at the first link above.
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    On the contrary I had posted the link for that very statement :)

    I work it out like this:

    1) It is Allah who gives victory and defeat.

    2) HE can give it with (for e.x weapons) or without (for e.x Angels) tangible means.

    3) Now, HE may give the inventor of the weapons either detailed knowledge of its structure so that he aims at synthesizing it OR HE may give abstract knowledge of just the method of synthesis (which one HE chooses to give is HIS Mashiyyat).

    4) So long as the output is achieved AND it can be replicated the means may not be of much import.

    5) So long as muslims remained obedient to HIM, HE allowed them victory even if the means included undetected nanotubes, when muslims became slack then all the oil wealth in the world couldn't do much good.

    Consider a few examples here for point 4:

    Newtonian mechanics and General Relativity differ in their details but for macroscopic objects Newton's is a sufficient approximation. (Unless of-course you want to be utterly exact about Mercury's orbit.)

    Then you must know about the Single Slit experiment for electrons: So are electrons particles or matter waves? Again, the difference is trivial so far as applications are concerned: Applications exist which substantiate both behaviours.

    Indeed. That is what Carl Sagan says in "Broca's Brains". But what Nasr is pointing to (perhaps) is that there's another way, a better one. Cause fasiq and kafir scientists may get spurred by motives quite different from that of, say, a pious muslim scientist. The ally of the former is Lucifer of the latter is Allah!

    " And the party-of-Allah IS the victorious " ​

    And AlaHadhrat certainly belongs to the latter. So if he advocates a geo-centric universe ( Geo-System, if you like) then I for one don't think it's wise to summarily dismiss it as mere uneducated ramblings of a Mulla.

    When I first read about aqida issues on marifah-forums I was just flabbergasted: I found Relativity in the 8th C.E ! One without math. Hidayah I called it. Consider this.

    But even if you insist that the modern way of thinking is what we need then I would like to draw your attention to this:

    Allah is the creator of all that exists - which includes our actions and thoughts (for e.x see here)

    So being heedless of his commandments may not be the best way to ask him to inspire us with this 'way of thinking'. And unless HE wishes, well:

    "Thou shalt not will except as Allah wills"​

  3. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    I would advise against it brother. There is far more harm in SH Nasr's books. This is because he twists everything. He is a faker himself. He claims to be a Shadhili shaykh, while being a rafiDi + modernist + perennialist :confused:
  4. brother Unbeknown you missed the most important point in the article:

    that is not the same thing as the discovery and identification of carbon nanotubes in the lab deliberately as a heretofore unknown form of carbon (C60). If you spot the difference you will get to the heart of my argument which I have been (unsuccessfully) trying to make.

    Ditto, apeing the outer appearance of Westerners doesn't make one a scientist. It is a way of thinking. That was Ataturk's mistake too.
  5. note to admin/mods: this topic has veered off course from the title. perhaps you can move the last few posts into a new thread called "islam and science"?
  6. btw, i don't agree with everything he says in that article. I am not convinced if Muslims can develop a separate Islamic Science--not in the way he means it --which is different from Western science unless in the limited sense of saying, "OK we will not develop this technology further due to ethical considerations which may oppose Shariah" but that is ethics and not science anyway. I think that the scientists he refers to--people like Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, and Umar Khayyam and al-Farabi etc. etc. were generally not considered orthodox Muslims (Sunnis) by many scholars and are still not considered as role-models by many of our ulema. Indeed, people like Ibn Sina were considered apostates by some...

    As an aside I would highly recommend SH Nasr's A Young Muslim's Guide to the Modern World for any Muslim.
  7. thanks for the article by SH Nasr. It is most interesting. Unfortunately some people will reject anything** he says because he is modernist/Ismaili/Shia/perrenialist/sullah-kulli*

    * delete as appropriate.

    ** disclaimer: i am not saying follow him in aqidah issues but on the history of islamic science and philosophy and its interaction with the west he is an expert.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
  8. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Got it.

  9. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Is'nt there a Hadith about how the muslims will face the armies of Dajjal ? I think it's something like they'll go on saying 'Allah u Akbar' and the enemy files will go on succumbing (I'm not sure if this is a hadith at all). But there are hadiths about muslim armies from Madinah just before the appearance of Dajjal. I don't know their Shuruh.

    The point is: if those who study worldly sciences are negligent of their religious obligations and their basic aim in perusing the knowledge is self-glorification then we can only hope for what we're getting already.

    " Then it is you who began slaying each other and you drive out a group of your people from their homeland – providing support against them (to their opponents) through sin and injustice; and if they come to you as captives you redeem them, whereas their expulsion itself is forbidden to you; so do you believe in some of Allah’s commands and disbelieve in some? So what is the reward of those who do so, except disgrace in this world? And on the Day of Resurrection they will be assigned to the most grievous punishment; and Allah is not unaware of your deeds. "

    In the other scenario we have:

    Narrated Uqbah ibn Amir:

    I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: Allah, Most High, will cause three persons to enter Paradise for one arrow: the maker when he has a good motive in making it, the one who shoots it, and the one who hands it; so shoot and ride, but your shooting is dearer to me than your riding. Everything with which a man amuses himself is vain except three (things): a man's training of his horse, his playing with his wife, and his shooting with his bow and arrow. If anyone abandons archery after becoming an adept through distaste for it, it is a blessing he has abandoned; or he said: for which he has been ungrateful.

    Narrated AbuUmamah:The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said:

    He who does not join the warlike expedition (jihad), or equip, or looks well after a warrior's family when he is away, will be smitten by Allah with a sudden calamity.

    Narrated Anas ibn Malik:The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said:

    Use your property, your persons any your tongues in striving against the polytheists.

    Is it possible that Allah will better the lot of the ummah and give its people the tawfiq to innovate and excel while a large portion of them are fasiq or heretics, abandon salah, deal unscrupously and wish for such freedom and enjoyment as the kuffar suffer?

    Was't the forgetting of one sunnah (of miswak) an impediment to the sucess of an expedition ? And how miraculous was the victory when it was attended to? The success of Muslims is subject to their obedience to the Almighty, of Kuffar is not.

    " O People who Believe! Shall I show you a trade that can save you from the painful punishment?

    Have faith in Allah and His Noble Messenger, and fight in Allah’s cause with your wealth and your lives; this is better for you, if you understand.

    He will forgive you your sins and admit you into Gardens beneath which rivers flow, and superb dwellings in everlasting Gardens of Eden; this is the greatest success.

    And He will give you another favour, which is dear to you – the help from Allah and an imminent victory; and O dear Prophet (Mohammed – peace and blessings be upon him), give glad tidings to the Muslims. "

  10. chisti-raza

    chisti-raza Veteran

    lol. I didn't.

    My point was that even though these rare breed of geniuses did not need a college degree or a formal qualification they did need people with essential skills to help translate their vision into reality.

    You are looking at it too literally brother. The mawlana was making a very profound point.
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    who asked you to drop out of college? the question was that geniuses and achievers will not become un-geniuses or un-achievers without a college degree or dropping out of school.
    it is unethical, inhuman and cruel to use nukes. just because the west deems it right and uses it should not make us lose our moral compass.

    sub'HanAllah! RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam forbade us to kill non-combatants even with swords and spears.

    nukes should be outlawed and muslims SHOULD (they are anyway, whether they have a choice or not) campaign against it. RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: 'he who does not have mercy will not get mercy'

    RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam forbade you to punish others by fire. RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam forbade you to oppress; and oppression is darkness on the day of Judgement. RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam forbade you to follow the fashion of Jews and Christians; this, in actions contrary to Islamic values. Wouldst you follow them in their merciless killing?

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2011
  12. chisti-raza

    chisti-raza Veteran

    Did you ever wonder why Bill Gates and Jobs, even though they dropped out of college, still surrounded themselves with graduates?
  13. chisti-raza

    chisti-raza Veteran

    I heard a (recorded) speech many years ago by Mawlana Fadl Rahman al-Ansari. The Mawlana gave much insight into all of these issues (if only I can find it). A statement of his that stuck in my mind is this: 'I fear the day when the West fights us with the Atom bomb and my brothers challenge them to fight with the sword. Saying to them, come fight us with the sword for this is how our forefathers fought!.'*

    * Slight paraphrased. He said this in the 70s.
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Sorry for butting in. . but I have a few genuine questions (whose answers may be obvious to others) :

    Is science REALLY the reason for the West's political and financial supremacy? And the lack of it the reason for the orient's backwardness?

    I am no visionary or philosopher but am asking it because of THAT article on (which I'm sure most of you've read. can't find it now). I thought it was profound.

    A question was once put to Ameer Ahl-e-Sunnat:

    Why have muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular no great scientific achievements to boast of ?

    A: You're asking the wrong person. You should ask those so called intellectuals that why has their dutiful dogging of the western education principles borne no fruit in all these 5-6 decades, which scientific breakthrough have they achieved by putting girls and boys together in small rooms and teaching them to be skeptics all in the name of progress? What good have suits and ties done you? Why is it that we mostly find the highly educated ones to be the more immoral, the more deceitful, the more vain? etc. etc.

    Haji Imran Attari: Which rocket have you invented by your bird-watching? (These are my words).

    A local A'lim: Come to the sunnah of the prophet, become model muslims, stop disobeying Allah so boldly, then Allah will make you victorious once more, HE will create great scientists and engineers amongst you.... Look at the Arabs, Allah put black gold right beneath their feet but they're still slaves of the west, all of them could not jointly defeat that pipsqueak country of the jews. . . .

    A long time back I read this and was filled with wonder. In what strange ways doth HE empower!

  15. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Please hasten your release of the 'seven foot Ridawi shelf'. It will be much appreciated by many.

    Nice post.
  16. Allah reward you for your amazing posts, ya aba Hasan!

    Looking forward to it, in sha' Allah. . .

    Any more planned releases for the Ridawi press, soon?
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    individual excellence and the genius who comes up with a new invention - is neither contained by artificial (or imaginary) obstacles, nor is trained to become a genius.

    conversely, being a muslim or islam does not impose upon you to not invent something or excel at what you do. a hadith says: 'Allah ta'ala likes you if you excel at what you do.' it is required for a muslim to be competent and strive for excellence.

    einstien failed in his 'western education'. jobs, gates and some other key worldly personalities didn't complete their university-education. but still such artificial bounds did not stop them from becoming what they eventually became.

    until the 20th century, the world was relatively, an idyll [sic] place. technology grew leaps and bounds in the previous 100 years and much of it is attributed to access to information. prior to the internet, those with access to libraries and centers of learning were at a clear advantage. thus, a ramanujan cannot hope for the aid and support, a privileged mathematician in the west enjoys. i would wager that if hawking was in bihar, he would have probably died in 1970. and if this guy was in massachusetts, he would have a dozen patents.

    the real world is not about lists. there are dozens of socio-economic problems related directly and indirectly to geopolitics. numerous factors that influence failures and successes. but all some people find is to blame islam somehow (i am not talking about NJ here).

    to quote an old cliche: necessity is the mother of invention. and if you look at all modern inventions, they are meant to enhance or gratify something considered as a 'desirable' among non-muslims.

    a good muslim would probably not have ever invented the iPod; or the camera; or e-bay or youtube; or a test-tube baby. blaming them for not inventing it is a no-brainer. in fact, i doubt whether we would have invented the internet - but you should give us credit for making these things to work for us.

    things are different and muslims are catching up today - because, information is accessible. i could have only dreamed of reading the five-foot bookshelf* some eight years ago, but today it is a reality.** one reason muslims were advanced some centuries ago was because of their access to information.

    i don't know, but i suppose things will change. we see more and more muslim names (though some are only muslims in a name) on scientific publications and joint ventures. as far as technology is considered, muslims are found at every level - and one reason for this is simply because of access to information.

    the result of this long rant is: don't blame islam or muslim scholars for the imaginary strangling of the imaginary inventor; or scorn the simple ordinary muslim who is more interested in the hereafter than this world.

    it is his choice.

    recently, i was reading a few manuscripts of alahazrat on trigonometry (both plain and spherical) etc. it is remarkable for the age he lived in and that he did not have a formal training in mathematics or direct access [in european languages] to modern mathematics or sciences. he had a razor sharp mind. if he had spent his life to serve some other science rather than fiqh and fatawa, i do not doubt that he would have excelled at it. but he did not value it as much as he did for his aakhirah. that was his choice (wa lillahi'l Hamd). you will find many examples of such minds among islamic scholars. and all of these bright minds made a choice to serve religion.

    in the end, einstein, poincare and lorentz - one time contemporaries of alahazrat - all of them died. some earned their reward in this world and one of them will inShaAllah get his reward in the next.

    it is for you to choose whom you wish to follow.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.

    *i have made a list for islamic reading and called it the the seven-foot ridawi bookshelf; will share later inShaAllah.

    ** you can even buy hardcopies on amazon or ebay.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    come on, nj. there is no need to apologise and you don't even have to ask. i have deleted three posts (but if you like, i will reinstate them).

    and i reiterate that we should be good muslims and approach problems from the viewpoint of muslims.

    this is how it is done by some:

    a) take a problem;
    b) look at present solutions (of the west or otherwise)
    c) then confuse this as a starting point
    d) attempt to map islamic concepts/learning
    e) are frustrated that some islamic concepts do not match (b).
    f) conclude that islam needs an upgrade.

    what we should do is:

    a) take the problem.
    b) DEFINE it.
    c) investigate it free from cognitive biases.
    d) THEN match with other solutions.


    a case in point, is that of evolution or the truth of bible. one of the major concepts is the age of the earth. since the bible puts it at 6000 years or so, and fossils prove that we go back millions of years ago - the bible is questioned. this point is routinely cited in arguments for evolution.

    as a muslim, i don't have that baggage of six thousand years - as i mentioned some time ago here. so that point in favor of evolution is useless to me.

    similarly the concepts of homosexuality or interest based transactions and so forth.

    much of what is repeated is conjectural argument - consider this from the guardian, few days ago. just count on how many conjectures there are - but yet, if someone questions that, they are dismissed as idiots.

    a) hypothesis. (we shall call it hyp-a)
    b) based on hyp-a, hyp-b
    c) hyp-a and hyp-b, therefore hyp-c.

    d) hyp-a, is a fact as proven earlier. (fact-a)
    e) hyp-k: based on fact-a

    f) even though, hyp-k is only a hypothesis, it is based on solid facts.

    read the guardian article and ask yourself: if you are in the middle of the sea, how would you know that you are in the centre or the side?
    i mean, we do not have the means to accurately measure things, merely 200 years ago on the terra firma. and all of this is based on the assumption that physical laws (as we know) are universal. (pun intended).

    all i am telling you NJ is:

    1) it doesn't matter if muslims are not the inventors of new things in this world. if they do, well and good - if they haven't or will not: 'so what?' yes, we may not have bragging rights, but we can perfectly use every bit of technology invented. look at it as something that you don't have to do it yourself - all of these inventions can be put to use by us.

    i think it makes perfectly good sense for a man to employ servants (if he can afford) to put his affairs in order, while he spends time in reading and learning; worshiping and praying. for such a man, scorning him that he is not a good cook or an expert driver doesn't make sense. if he could also do that, good; but if doesn't bother to do it, what is the problem?

    2) if this is stated to accuse that - al-iyadhu billah - islam or muslims are useless, we say that islam is not about teaching you to make a smartphone. islam teaches you about far more important things. we will all die. and the world will end. regardless, you as a human/muslim have at the most a 100 years.

    it is your choice to spend your life for a little fame or recognition that will last say, 80 years (assuming, you are a nobel-prize winner at 21; which will be of little use after you die anyway). or spend your life for an eternal life. even 10,000 years was worth the bargain.

    and for those who don't believe in life after death: so what? it is your life anyway.

    3) in today's world, muslims are already employed in key technology areas: intel or ibm or pharmas. if you think that it would make a difference if the owner was a muslim or if intel was an arab company - i disagree. i think it is inconsequential.

    4) the reason worldly power is with non-muslims is nothing to worry about. it would have been good if muslims were powerful, but as eschatology says, we should expect this. one of the conditions for imam mahdi to arrive is when there is no islamic rule anywhere in the world.

    and this is bound to happen. personally, i look forward to go to jannah [inShaAllah, all of us] instead of being stuck up on this unforgiving, disease and crime ridden planet. the sooner the better.

    5) as far as success in dunya is concerned, or making money by halal means, "do not forget your share in this world".

    6) or contributing to human causes worldwide - and particularly in muslim countries. no one disputes that. we should do it and encourage others to do it. do not equate corruption of muslim societies with a failure of islamic systems.

    7) learn the ethos of islam and then be free. knowledge will set you free.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
  20. It is this "so what?" that infuriates me sidi AH! It sounds almost callous.
    I know it isnt true but it gives me the impression the sorry state of our ummah doesnt bother you.

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