Mufakkir responds to Syed Irfan

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by Unbeknown, Oct 27, 2011.

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  1. I am embarassed of myself at my comments at sidi abu hasan. His translation work has been tremendous and the book A Truth About A Lie was awesome. I didnt mean any of what i said to him in my last post. He
    is a brother i have known personally since the old days of ASFA so i guess i lashed out in anger in my last post. I am.sorry. Someone has sent me a PM and i havent read it yet but i wanted to post this apology publically. Maaf kardo yaar.

    I honestly do believe the muslim ummah lost a trick somewhere when we stopped. Developing technology ourselves. For me there is a clear link between the study of science,the development of technology and military and economic power along with a pilitical.system which doesnt interfere with one's personal freedom to think. I want to see the whole muslim world as developed and equitable a society as say germany is. Add our beautiful moral system of islam with its spirituality and you would have a model society, the envy of the world.
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    besides, us scientifically less advanced miyan-bhai's have this bad habit of good retention, remembering things people say. we let our guards down and fall for it hook, line and sinker when some intellectual with an analytical mind and a western education says something like this. we should know better that people with western education are accustomed to saying stuff they can't remember later on. ;)
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    actually, it is because of aN's insistence that i am a sunniport administrator - which is not much, by the way. see, you make wrong assumptions again: why ask an ant that question?

    but the point you missed was, that i don't go about starting threads dissing muslims of 700 years or more, and insisting dozens of times that 'my analytical mind' or 'my scientific intelligence' doesn't conform to something or the other. or make statements whose undertone is that perhaps muslims in the past 700 years might have been backward and ignorant.

    i didn't demand that muslims (and focus on islamic scholars) should have come up with some technological innovation to rival other civilizations - i was just asking why don't you do it yourself? i felt that you are blaming islam by making such corny accusations, hence the pique. as for me, i have stated my viewpoint: "so what?"

    oh, it is nothing. i didn't think anyone would bother about it. also, you already know me very well. plus, if people knew the real me, they would be embarrassed:

    mujrim ko na sharmaO, aHbab kafan Dhak do
    muNh dekh ke kya hoga; pardey meiN bhalayi hai.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  4. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    I apologize for all my past offenses and all my personal attacks to any Sunni brother or sister.
  5. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    This moon issue has already been discussed:

    Brother NJ is a good brother. He is enquiring. And those who are capable must provide him with answers. This is a forum where others also come to see the posts and in many cases to learn something.

    I think if we have personal type of disagreements we can always pm each other. No need to argue in public view. Debates can ensue but not personal attacks.

    I apologise or any previous offences or personal attacks.
  6. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    i am surprised, there are tools of argument that our dear brother uses, he used one of his classic ones on you, and alas asif bhai, despite knowing him for so long, i just saw you slaughtered by it.

    you can call him a pot all day and it wouldn't matter to him. inshaAllah, but
    .... is se ziyadah hadd.e.adab.

    was salam ma al ikram
  7. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Brother Asif is one of the few people on the net who are humble, and do not have bloated images of themselves. I have been following his posts since ASFA forums and and AlaHazrat yahoo group.

    He is the sweetest human being I have known. I love him dearly for that sake. He takes everything so gently.

    I know that language is not always sugar-coated and presented. But at least it can be presented in a way that is permanent, and does not demoralize the other person. No one will learn anything in this manner. We can linger on for more years.
  8. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Sidi nj, I used to believe he is an internet mufti too. But honestly, to be fair, he has translated The Preamble to Faith. He has achieved what loud mouths anywhere on the internet, like me, could not do squat!

    Its a great victory, for these times on the internet anywhere.

    I can never repay him for translating The Preamble to Faith in good English, proper work!!!!! I am 23 years old. I have my entire life ahead. I needed it for myself, for clarity, after a long time of confusion.

    We need to get the blessed kutub of 'Ala Hazrat on the shelves! We will not let liars like Keller tell the world that 'Ala Hazrat had an exotic prophetology. If that were true, then so does Imam alNablusi! [who keller quotes often], and so does Shaykh Yusuf al Nabhani and so does SHAYKH AL AKBAR!!! [who keller loves so much]

    keller is a liar

    Please smile, be happy. Its joyous time. In sha Allah, now we have a press of our own. Its time to fill English Speaking Shelves with Sunni books. Long have fakers like TJ winters been fooling us sheeple. Remove his books from your shelves, Sunni brothers and sisters, even though they might be on Imam alGhazali, be Hoshyaar O Sunni!
  9. three words: pot. kettle. black.

    unlike others i have never claimed to be anything. for someone who goes on about ad hominem attacks and how they are wrong i noticed you didn't actually respond to the arguments beyond saying the bad astronomy guy himself makes fun of those who don't believe in the moon landings. and making fun of me which is your habit and something you have been doing for quite a long time by the way periodically. i have never minded it before because i always thought, 'he is a friend who is trying to give me nasiha' but typically you take advantage of my good nature. well, no more.

    i could ask exactly the same questions to you? beyond being a sunniport administrator...which mountains have you uprooted recently?

    i asked some questions and instead of answering you resort to comments like, 'you are dumb' etc.

    for such a big scholar and internet mufti why all the secrecy? at least i don't hide my true identity on the internet.
    May Allah guide us all. amin!
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you are blind and dumb and as AQ says, sheeple. i have seen all these counter arguments but they are usually ad-hominem as they can get. that is why i started this para with such a statement.

    what makes you think that i did not read the counter arguments?

    the bad astronomy guy always ridicules those who question the moon landing. if your position is so strong, why can't you just state your case? anyway, that bad astronomy guy is stupid.

    i have resisted saying this for too long: unfortunately, you have a very big bloated image of yourself - you are yourself a nothing. what is your contribution to anything, in spite of getting a 'western education.' what is your achievement by the way? this is you, but you don't hesitate to scorn people from religious schools who are not meant to do that anyway. you tell me why haven't you invented anything of notice so far?

    so, what is your excuse?
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  11. i have read all of the claims of the conspiracy theorists who say NASA faked the evidence and point out discrepancies. i have also read the replies. in my view the evidence presented for the moon landings outweighs the objections of the conspiracy theorists. especially when all of their questions have been answered. i do try to read both sides of any argument unlike many on here it seems.

    why didn't NASA go again since the 1970s? There was no political will. It was only done as a part of the Cold War with the USSR to show the superiority of the US system. Once it was achieved there was nothing left to prove. Then they moved onto other things like sending orbiters and robots to Mars, Venus etc. as it was also much more economical. Remember it was expensive to go to the Moon! Then other things like Vietnam War etc. happened to the USA and took their resources whereas the Soviets were always struggling economically and the military budgets of both sides were the priority. Even the Space Race was primarily a battle in the War for military dominance.

    and here are the most comprehensive replies to all the conspiracy theorists' objections:


    the most obvious answer is this:
    (ok you can argue about "free world" but that is another topic).
    see, contrary to the opinions of some i do read as much and as objectively as possible.

    i think some conspiracy theories are certainly plausible for example all the evidence i have read suggests that more than one person shot JFK. I've read both sides of the story and think the conspiracy theorists have the stronger case.

    i know the tale of the scholar who asked an illiterate villager if he ever had doubts about his iman and the man said no and the scholar wept and said he wished he had that level of iman. i wish i had 100% iman all the time with no doubts but sadly i am not at that level. i bet there are millions if not billions more out there like me and instead of making mockery if people were more willing to admit that people differ in their levels and intellects and try to explain things it would be much better.

    for my part i will try to read as many of the classical books i can find in translation in any language i understand. in the past i have refrained from reading them on topics like theology as i heard it was dangerous for one's imaan but i guess my intellectual curiosity--call it what you will--is too great.
    i need not only spiritual certainty--which i have (alhamdulillah) but also intellectual which i dont.

    as for me i can generally see no contradiction in being a man of science and a student of tassawuf striving for spirituality. the conflict comes in the domain of the intellect. maybe if i am ever spiritually purified enough it will resolve itself.

    Allah knows best.
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    multiple times?

    so why did they not go back to the moon for 40 years, even though computers on desktops are far more powerful than they used far back then; overall technology has grown leaps and bounds, but why did they not go back again?

    irrefutable evidence? did you see it? except for NASA's pictures - and they conveniently lost the original tapes, because they misplaced it. if there is any other evidence, i would like to see it.

    getting a moon rock is possible even without manned machines.

    remember that we don't say that you cannot go to the moon; we just question whether it is true. instead of dismissing this as a conspiracy theory, why don't you keep your mind open and evaluate those objections?
  14. Ya Allah! Yes they did. Multiple times. There is irrefutable evidence. Why does an intelligent person like you fall for the most extreme conspiracy theories. You can go to a museum of natural history and touch moon rock.
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is futile to argue with people like gg who simply throw something and act as if they have been 'rigorous'. i have followed KS and he should not engage with any new query with people like gg unless they have acknowledged the answer to the previous query. they are time wasters.

    people who jump from one branch to another like certain primates and act as if it is a smart thing to do.

    and as for NJ:
    why not go to the moon once again? and did they really go to the moon?
  16. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    By not following jamhur a person can become a faasiq and mubtadi' according to some.

    @NJ: It is on the Muslim scientific community to make advances in sciences and not the maulvies. The job of the maulvie is to tell you the limits of science and where it can get unethical.
  17. people are planning manned missions to Mars and robotic missions to Jupiter's moons and we are arguing about whether ijma is qati' or dhanni on an issue involving people who lived in the 7th-8th century!!

    meanwhile millions of people in our countries do not have two meals a day nor electricity nor clean drinking water even in 2011 :(

    subhan Allah!
  18. Sorry Buddy! don't really have much time for that, the other things are a one minute job but why don't you reply to your own questions? I'm sure you have the capacity to present a worked out theory of Ijma' that has an ijma' on it. after all, what good is a theory of Ijma that does not have an ijma on it. this pretty much defeats the purpose. if there is no ijma on a particular theory of ijma then that can hardly be considered an ijma! I'm out.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2011
  19. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    I will look up your request and what you have posted.

    In the mean time, as you are posting, can you answer the questions and queries on ijma' which were posted on another thread?
  20. al-Dhahabi says about Ahmed ibn abdullah al-'Ijli is his siyar:

    الإمام الحافظ الأوحد الزاهد ، أبو الحسن ، أحمد بن عبد الله بن صالح بن مسلم ، العجلي الكوفي

    the imam, the hafidh, the pious....

    in other words, he was great ahl al-sunna imams who died in 261 AH.

    now, what was the aqeeda of this ahlesunna IMAM?

    here we have from tehdhib al-Kamal of al-Mizi where he gives the opinion of Imam al-Ijli about umar ibn sa'd:

    وقال أحمد بن عبدالله العجلي : كان يروي عن أبيه أحاديث، وروى الناس عنه.
    وهو الذي قتل الحسين، وهو تابعي ثقة

    Umar ibn sa'd was an authentic reporter, who reports from his father and people report from him. He was the KILLLER of (IMAM) al-Husayn. he was a tabi' and authentic reporter.



    so we have an ahle sunnah Imam considering the killer of IMAM Husayn as a reliable reporter and a tabi'

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