Sayyidah e Kayinat

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Aug 28, 2020.

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  1. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    With regards to Sh Nabeel, he is better off leaving this masla to the scholars because it is becoming clear that he is not qualified to publically make clarifications or judgements.

    He then accuses brothers on Sunniport of maligning Sunni scholars when he has openly supported Shah Sahib's behaviour towards Jalali Sahib. What he also forgets is that I was tolf who he used to approach to get them to pass judgements on and refute Sunni scholars. If he really thinks Sunniport is a fitna, he should take a second look at his own History.
  2. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    i am aware of the nasibiyat and double standards within deobandis thank you. it doesn't mean all deobandis are nasibis. tariq jameel is a deobandi who clearly isn't a nasibi. stop deflecting the topic. you don't get it do you? why should a so called sunni scholar (sorry i don't know who AH really is. it could be anyone. all i see is a person using a nickname on the internet and you guys all think of him as your guru/pir or something like that because you jump to his defence at the slightest criticism) who loves the ahlul bayt --perhaps he does -- make such a silly linguistic objection which no other sunni scholar has deemed necessary to make and that too in the first 10 days of muharram when sunnis are busy in the zikr of imam hussain (a.s.) and his companions? maybe his intentions are good but it doesn't appear very supportive of one who loves ahle bait does it?

    on top of that you jumped to defend jalali's gustakhi against bibi paak s.a. and criticised sunni scholars like syed irfan shah and saeed asad and syed munawar shah and pir syed munawar jamaati who pointed out this gustaakhi! so if you put both things together all we've seen from you lot in muharram is spending all your time trying to prove (nauzubillah) that bibi paak made a mistake and that we should not use the phrase sayyida e kainaat.

    maybe you're not nasibis but if it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck...

    as for my heart? how can you tell what's in my heart?!
  3. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @AbuSulayman. Firstly, this was an observation by @abu Hasan, which he provided his evidence for. Nothing more or nothing less. This was then picked up by Shaykh Nabil (don't know how he did this by NOT perusing Sunniport anymore) and has now reached Sayyid Muzaffar Hussain Shah. Strangely, our issues with Shah Sahib have not reached Syed Muzaffar Hussain Shah because he is yet to comment on the fatwa and Shah Sahib's swearing. Both of which ACTUALLY have Shari implications.

    @AbuSulayman... I tell you what I can't stand about people like you. In your heart you have time for people like Tariq Jamil who referred to Imam Hussain as 'pagal' and who belongs to the jammat that deem the phrase (May Allah most High have mercy on him) permissible for Yazid. Check out Dar ul Ifta of Deoband if you don't believe. When a Sunni scholar raises a point just from a language standpoint and its implication, you conclude, it can only be bughz towards Ahl ul Bayt. Where has your broadmind outlook gone now. Yeah I forgot, it is only reserved for those who hold hetradox positions.
    Stop wasting our time because it is clear you are here just to spew your nonsense and not to gain clarification or do Islah.
  4. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    We often hear it used: huzur sayyid e kayinat ﷺ. So in that sense, aH seems to be right. If RasulAllah ﷺ is sayyid e kayinat, then we should avoid the title for anyone else.

    Imagine we said sayyid e kayinat for anyone even greater than Sayyidah Fatimah رضي اللہ عنھا, it would sound odd as it's used for RasulAllah ﷺ. E.g. sayyid e kayinat Abu Bakr.

    Once again, people jump to brandishing the nasibi card so quick! You can disagree with aH but how did you conclude so soon he hates ahl al-bayt?! You people are becoming the very extremists you accuse others of being! When will people differentiate between holding a position and it being necessarily nasb?!

    Notice, aH himself defended Irfan Shah sahib from accusations of being a closet shiah and only disagreed with his positions. Yet as soon as aH makes an observation based on evidence, he is deemed nasibi!

    So what if we said Sayyidah Fatimah isn't masum? Would that make us nasibi too? Because we're denying a rank for her, aren't we?

    Ignorance is a disease. Compound ignorance is a killer one.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
    Noori likes this.
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    firstly, i have never objected to sayyidatu nisa'a al-aalamin as it is from the hadith.

    if muzaffar shah sahib is talking about sayyidah e ka'inat, as i have replied to nabeel, he probably needs to look up some books on language and specifically about istighraq and how some words are intrinsically all-encompassing, and some others need a qualifier and are hence open to interpretation.

    i posted a while ago:ā.14514/page-13#post-69162

    copying here for easy access: [do follow the link as there are a couple of useful follow-up posts by other members].


    even sunnis keep saying 'sayyidah e ka'inat'.

    this is incorrect.
    because 'kainat' includes khulafa rashidin, prophets, angels, the four great angels and sayyid e kainat sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam HIMSELF.

    which implies that sayyidah faTimah is the sayyidah (owner, queen) of them all.

    i have said before that these terms are not right. the title given in the hadith is 'sayyidatu nisaa'a ahl al-jannah'. or sayyidatu nisa'a al-aalamin.

    some people talk about "mawla e kainat", while this is also to be avoided - there can be a ta'weel from a mutawatir hadith: "ali is mawla of whoever i am mawla of" mawla also means helper, as mentioned in the verse:


    but sayyidah e ka'inaat is like saying "sayyidatu awwalina wa'l aakhirin" or "sayyidatu waladi aadam".

    you won't find this phrase in earlier generations - i suspect pakistani scholars took it from compatriot shiyis and it was repeated so often in speeches that people just accepted it as permissible.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.


    you are a prize idiot. it is not bughz but adab of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.
    sayyidu'l ka'inat is only for sayyid e `alam SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. you can bleat all you want.

    i do not remember reading this term/title in any urdu book that was written by the time of alahazrat or a few decades after him; i couldn't find this in a few farsi works i could lay my hands upon. this term seems to be totally alien in arabic literature.

    if i am mistaken, but i encourage people - including muzaffar shah sahib - to fish out a few examples from any book or scholar. this is a novel term (i suspect) invented by pakistani shia and careless scholars swallowed it.
  6. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    it could also be sayyidatul alameen i guess if you want it to be in arabic.
    but its just a red herring as maulana nabeel and syed muzaffar shah sahib have said. the real reason is you just cant stomach that ordinary sunnis have deep love for bibi paak and your takfiri nasibism in now being exposed by scholars.
  7. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Well-Known Member

    Nabeels recent comment Re Sunniport

    “I have made a stance from some years that i will not visit this portal as its main objective to malign Sunni Ullema & Mashaikh.”

    Nabeel should list the Ulama he refers to

    It would not surprise me if he did lie.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  8. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    you guys still haven't given any logical reason as to why you object to the phrase sayyidah e kainaat when no other sunni in the indo persian world has had any issues with it?!

    if its not bughz of Bibi Fatima (s.a.) then what is it? after all, as Muzaffar Shah has pointed out and others too have noted, the word 'sayyida' is female and precludes prophets and arch angels!
  9. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    i'm just a simple man, and never laid any claims to scholarship, that's why i follow sunni scholars like syed irfan shah and syed abdul qadir shah, but if you want the arabic equivalent of sayyidah e kainaat why not use the exact translation in arabic of sayyida e kainaat. wouldn't that be سيدة الكون ?
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Besides, Muzaffar Shah sahab could easily wrap this "rebuttal" up in one sentence. "Nisaa" by definition precludes prophets and angels!
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Pathetic and shameful. If indeed Nabeel Afzal reported outright lies to Muzaffar Shah that Abu Hasan objected to saying Sayyidah Nisaa Al-3aalameen, then Nabeel should also drown himself in chullu bhar pani.

    Strange that so called slaves of Ahlul Bayt should resort to lies!

  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    The entire world is not Desi or persian.

    Islam was revealed in Arabic.

    Islamic texts and mustalahat are in Arabic.

    Whatever is the textual mustalah in Arabic for "Sayyidah e Kainat" - just use that.

    Just advise us what that is @AbuSulayman . Give reference too.

    Specially since you know of intricately detailed terms like Husayni Sunnis and Umawi Sunnis, this should be a piece of cake for you.

    If you can't, you should drown yourself in chullu bhar pani. You can surely give the Arabic mustalah with textual evidence for Sayyidah e Kainat, whose noble progeny you love so dearly, and you know who Abbas Alamdar is and the names of the 12 imams.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  13. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    yes, please do change the word mistress to Lady (since unfortunately in modern usage Mistress can have other connotations as pointed out) or change it to Female Leader or, even better, leave it as Sayyida e Kainaat. After all, it wasn't us Hussaini Sunnis and aashiqan e ahle bayt who had a problem with the phrase 'sayyidah e kainaat' in the first place rather it was you who couldn't stomach it and made far fetched arguments against it!
  14. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    of course.

    but chest beating matermites whose only measure of 'love' is symbolic - titles will neither realise nor apologise.
  16. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Yes please change it to Lady.
    Umar99 likes this.
  17. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I don't like this expression one bit. Mistress nowadays means something else.
    Umar99 likes this.
  18. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    In my limited understanding, Sayyidah Fatima's (radiAllahu anha) status would be higher than Imam Husain (radiAllahu anhuma); so why would Sayyidah need to seek intercession on behalf of her son's blood? Isn't she qualified/deserving to intercede in her own right?

    But I guess, rafizis have got the order all mixed up; some swines place ahl ul-Bayt even higher than Allah (jalla jalalahu)!
  19. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    sad reality - ta'assub doesn't honor the demarcations of deen or madhhab or millat. The muta'assib sees in one dimension only.


    Nabeel didn't bother about abu Hasan or sunniport for several months - even after irfan sahib was roundly criticized and his loss of amaanah highlighted.

    Nabeel started attacking abu Hasan by name only after the latter expressed his intention of analysing nabeel's own speech.

    and being fully aware of what that would lead to, he chose the only route which was left to him - the, by now well practiced, and tried and tested weapon: invoking the bogeyman of nasibism.

    everyone is tainted with nasibism now - including nabeel - you just have to adjust your lenses to spot it.

    that is the problem with labels, they grow rickety too quickly now a days.
    Noori and sherkhan like this.
  20. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    just a small reminder to our newest trollsy friend

    Noori likes this.

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