Usul Al-Hadith: Texts

Discussion in 'Usul al-Hadith' started by Wadood, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    I suggest you move onto the other chapter, which is entitled 'alRukhsah fi I'tizal Aimmatil Fitnah fil Masajid'. 'Chapter on Avoiding Imams of Tribulation in the Masajid.' On page sixteen, at the bottom paragraph and onwards.

    He even mentions Ulama who missed prayer in Masjid Haram in Makkah because of tribulation. Now even Shaykh Abdul Ghani's fatwa on congregation is that of obligation, but if the conditions are not met then that obligation is dropped. In times of tribulation, where the Imams are corrupt, the leeway for people to leave praying behind transgressors is there.

    But a very important point to note in the application of this verdict is that a person who notices the Imams tajwid is not good or the Imam does not pray according to the sunnah is more learned than that Imam in the prayer. Such a person is the one who will avoid praying behind someone who will invalidate his prayer.
    But this equally applies for other social meetings and gatherings.

    I do not think there is a 'faqih' who claims isolation, has tea and biscuits with people, and then misses congregational prayers that are valid.

    It would be appreciated if a fatwa from a living Mufti were placed on line.

    BarakAllahu feek.
  2. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    And I still don't accept that Shaykh Asrar said any of what you mentioned. Again, best to verify it.
  3. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    How did you then misunderstand Luzum Al-Buyut to mean missing an invalid congregation?

    You may not know students like that but I know Shaykhs like that. Is it wise to tell lay people this? As you expounded, times are bad. We don't need to worsen them by telling people to miss the congregation. If the Imam's tajwid is better than the followers, the followers prayer is valid. And if you say our Imams cant give proper Adhaan or recite properly, imagine the lay people. So their prayer is valid anyway. No need to tell them to miss Jama'ah.

    Due to anomalies like this, we should just stick to the Muftis of our time.
  4. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    No, there is a clear misunderstanding, as I thought you are are referring to those who miss the congregation based on the fact that the congregation is invalid. Not that you are referring to isolation from society.

    If anyone is missing prayer due to the fact that he claims he is in isolation, then that is wrong, if the prayer in congregation is according to the Prophetic way. And then if such a person meets others unnecessarily, then he is wrong. But I do not of any one claims such.

    No he does not, and I have not claimed that he does. He ordered the attendees to pray in congregation and if they still feel the Imam is unfit (which some of the Dawat e Islami brothers did) to repeat their prayer.
  5. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    Imam Al-Nabalusi says in the aforementioned epistle (which is not a fatwa; read it carefully): "From those who mainteined luzum Al-Buyut is the Hanafi jusrist Ibrahim ibn Rustam... Al-Ma'mun offered him the post of Judge (Qadi) which he refused and returned to his house."

    Then, in the same work, about Imam Muhammad b. Yusuf Shams Al-Din Al-Hanafi he says: "He would not leave his house for congregation or Friday prayers." A little contemplation will show how the concept of Luzum Al-Buyut in this epistle is very different to what you have presented as the correct application and understating of it. The context and cotext (the first chapter in fact!) suggest fitan as the cause for this seclusion and not the fiqh reasons you attributed to Shaykh Asrar. It is as though, you have not read the book.
  6. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    I find it very difficult to believe that a learned and qualified scholar would endorse such a view for the reasons give below:
    1. The passage of Shaykh Abd Al Ghani is from his commentary on Hadiya ibn Al-‘Ammad entitled Nihaya Al-Murad; a text which is not from the source texts, commentaries nor fatawa of the school. Nor is Luzum Al-Buyut mentioned therein.
    2. Luzum Al-Buyut does not mean leaving the congregation only. It means not leaving the house at all, as explained by Al-Nabalusi in his epistle. Abandoning the congregation but meeting up for tea and biscuits is not Luzum Al-Buyut. Missing the congregation at 4pm but coming to study a dars at 4.30pm IS NOT LUZUM AL-BUYUT. What you have attributed to Shaykh Asrar as an explanation of Luzum Al-Buyut contradicts the very concept as described by Al-Nabalusi. The Shaykh would not make mistakes like this.
    3. Sayyidi Imam Ahmad Rida Khan (Imam of many) says: "That individual, who does not recognise the people of his time and does not take into consideration their states, for fatwa, is an ignoramus," (Al-Fatawa: Vol. 12, pg. 214). Merely taking Al-Nabalusi’s statement “as this is the predominant in our time,” and assuming that our time must be worse does not suffice in giving fatwa.
    4. Khalifa e Ala Hazrat, Mufti Deedar Ali Shah says in his fatawa:
    "If, the Imam is such a transgressor that you cannot get rid of him nor can you find another place to pray with a pious Imam, then to pray behind the transgressor is better than leaving the congregation. Additionally, to abandon the congregation is a greater sin than praying behind a transgressor,” (Fatawa Deedaria: Pg. 124)
    5. Only a Mufti can pass a fatwa; No mufti in our times has endorsed this view. With all respect to the noble Shaykh, he is not a mufti.
    6. You words suggest we don’t have to pray in congregation.
    7. Shaykh Asrar’s Shaykh, his eminence Shaykh Ilyas Attar Al-Qadiri includes praying in congregation in his Madani Ina’mat. They do Imamat courses; if he and the QUALIFIED muftis endorsed Luzum Al-Buyut, such courses would not exist.
    8. Praying nawafil in congregation is disliked yet our LIVING MUFTIS encourage people to come and pray these in congregation to get people off the streets. Yet apparently Shaykh Asrar, a respecter of the Ulema, is telling people to leave the wajib congregation?

    You being the Shaykh's student should verify this with him and other attendees of the dars of Mishkat. Please do not attribute utter nonsense to Ulema for validation purposes.
  7. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Shaykh Abdul Ghani Nablusi, Allah have mercy on him, has a fatwa on this called 'Takmil alNu'ut'.

    However, the application of this fatwa was explained to us in Mishkat Sharif lesson by Maulana Asrar (teacher to a few), that this applies only when the congregational prayer is disliked.

    Shaykh Abdul Ghani says in 'Nihayatul Murad fi Sharh Hadiyat ibn alImad' "This (congregational prayer being necessary) is only when the congregational prayer is not disliked. As for congregational prayer in which it is disliked to follow, like the congregation of one who opposes the school, or those who leave adhan and the iqama in accordance with the Sunnah by stretching the words, or the congregation of an Imam who is a transgressor or ignoramus, then there is no dislike in leaving (such a congregation) and praying on ones own, as this is the predominant in our time. There is no might and power except with Allah!"

    So if this was predominant in the time of Shaykh Abdul Ghani's time in Damascus, at a time when the Ulama were stronger, then what is the situation today, and especially in the UK where ignorance is concentrated?? Something for us to discuss.
  8. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    These kind of problems always exist. We have some "students of knowledge," and some "fuqaha," who have taken it upon themselves to endorse luzum alBuyut thus not attending Jama'a yet they meet up with others for tea and biscuits. The lack of Sufi Fuqaha is very clear. Allah increase us in our submission to Him, His Habib and the Inheritors.
  9. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    That is a shame. May Allah Almighty protect us.
  10. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Shame some 'Sufi's' attack Shaykh Nur alDin Itr and slander him behind his back, saying he is not a real scholar etc.
  11. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    Assumptions assumptions and more assumptions. As states at the very beginning; sometimes its good not to over read things. The initial request referred to sub-continent Ulema and their works due to my ignorance of their works and personal attachment as the aforementioned luminaries are from our grand teachers. Works of the Arab researchers like Muhammad Awwama and Dr. Nur Al- Din are widely available. No need to ask about their works.

    As for the latter waffle then in brief, no. But new research does save a student much effort. Reading, for example, Muhammad Awwama's work on how differences in hadith methodology have affected differences in fiqh, would save us the time of checking hundreds of usul books.

    This new research is not independent of established usul. The same way Al Hadi Al Kaf is not independent of established, classical usul. And no this new research won't offer a new condition for the tashih of a hadith; the same way Al Hadi Al Kaf won't suffice in doing tashih bil kashf. Nonetheless, it's an amazing work and any student would like to obtain a copy. What's your point? Maybe instead of speaking to everyone based on assumption, you could have helped out a student by simply listing a few books with some links. Allah reward you though.

    There is much to be learned from waffles too. Just add beans and you'll have breakfast.
  12. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    Knowing what irony is would help. Try a proper linguistic dictionary/corpus as opposed to google.
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is mostly for aHkam. not for uSul.

    i will take that it does not refer to me because i am neither british-born nor was i talking about arab ulama.

    just to refresh: the question was about musTalaH texts in urdu/arabic by subcontinent ulama. my point was, that looking specifically for texts by subcontinent ulama is not necessary unless you are looking for a translation or a non-arabic language; and if it is arabic, there are a number of works on usul-hadith written by experts [who happen to be arab ulama, which is beside the point] and published and available. specialist texts shall be in arabic and anyone trying to move up to the intermediate level should be able to read arabic.

    i hope you are not asking us to forget ibn Hajar and zarkashi and read dissertations of graduates in ashrafiyah or nayimiyah? and these dissertations that you talk about: are these independent of the usul literature that we have? regardless, i would like to know the new developments in uSul; for example, is there a new condition to categorise a hadith as SaHiH? and do we recalibrate all the Hadith based on latest research?

    apologies for the blunt statement, but critical thinking is going south nowadays.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the irony.

    apart from the fact that you took the quip too literally.
  15. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    Generally what is written in a particular age is borne out of the needs of the society. people have researched on different aspects of the Deen mainly because of the environment in which the problems arose. For example, Ya Rasullallah issue has been researched and extensively written about in the sub-continent. There are similar foci in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Saudia. The latter one concerned with bidah and grave worship.
  16. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    No thank you. I'll stick to books and teachers. BarakAllahu feek.
  17. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    Mutawatir was presented as an example to make a point; what kind of books I'm asking about and why. If the classical works were all one needed then our Ulema would not constantly be producing new pieces of research. The latter is what the initial inquiry was regarding.

    BarakAllahu fikum
  18. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    I can't see how that's related to my query for the names of some books!
  19. Muhammad Sakti

    Muhammad Sakti New Member

    There is a horrible stereotype surrounding the scholars of the Indo-Pak Subcontinent of the past century, with due thanks of-course to insecure and self-loathing British-born 'sunnis' who find personal gratification in proposing the idea that the Arab Ulama are far more akin to the science of Ulum al-Hadith than the scholars of the Subcontinent who, apparently, spend their days in folly; engaging in polemics and are forever obsessed with Aristotelian Philosophy.

    The fact of the matter is that some of the greatest works on Ulum al-Hadith in the past century have been penned by the Sunni Muhaditihin of Tatwa, Townk and Kayrawan. A large portion of the dissertations submitted by Takhassus students in Jamia Nizamiyya, Naeemiya, Ashrafiyya etc, for the most part, form a collation of specialist reserach in the science of Hadith.

    Even the late Imam Faidh al-Millat Shaykh Faid Ahmad al-Uwaysi, may Allah sanctify his noble secret, wrote over 100 works in the science of Hadith.

    These works (respectively in the Arabic, Urdu, Sirayki and Farsi languages) are all archived and available. However, jewels are only given to those who are able to tell the value of gold over dung.
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    all you have to do is google 'mutawatir' and google calculator will do the rest for you.

    sometimes forums will also help.

    if a conceited hand tries to paw at knowledge from a high-horse, it deserves a rap. the horse, i mean. and if you are so smart that you can just walk into dar al-makkah (wherever that is or whatever) to pick any classic you like - please do. i would suggest ibn Hajar's nuz'hatu'n nazar, which is a beginner's guide and in its first four or five pages the discussion of mutawatir can be found.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.

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