When was RasulAllah ﷺ granted nubuwwah?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Apr 27, 2020.

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  1. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    Brother Abu Hasan, you wrote "the first condition is as stated in bahar e shariat. no objection on that one, and no argument concerning that." (post 29)
    that's why i asked this. Not much had been said about this and seemed a bit confusing to me.That doesn't mean it would be confusing to others. It appeared so to me.
    Would you be kind enough to elaborate a bit more on this?
    Jazak Allah.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i hope you don't consider bahar e shariat v1 as the final authority on kalam.
  3. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    Dear brother Abu Hassan and other learned brothers:

    there are 3 conditions necessary for a prophet.

    1. he should be human. a non-human cannot be a prophet. they can be messengers [rasul], but it is necessary for a prophet to be human. check page no.10 in bahar e shariat.

    2.for one to be a prophet, it is necessary that he should receive revelation [waHy] - whether it is [delivered] by an angel or he receives without any intermediary.

    3. and what is the third condition? that there should be his followers too. the message of Allah ta'ala comes to him [i.e. prophet] and he [the prophet] will forward the [message] to the followers.

    I feel that conditions (2) and (3) have been adequately clarified in this thread. But what about condition (1)?

    1) Was Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) BASHAR (with a Body or Jism Mubarak) at the time of Khalq of Hazrat Adam (A.S) & his granting of Prophethood?
    2) How do you explain above in the light of the condition (1) mentioned in bahar-e-shariat?

    This was a question that came to my mind, hence i decided to ask.
  4. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  5. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

  6. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  7. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    No problem
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Brother Isaac Amini I am earnestly sorry, kindly pardon me for another month; during rabiy'ul awwal sharif, and until 11ve sharif i won't be able to find time; therefore i won't be able to finish the pdf. however, i will try my best to finish it next month inshaAllah.
    Isaac Amini likes this.
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Noori likes this.
  10. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    See sheikh Abu hasans replies to my questions, it's the second post on page 7 (viewing in mobile view from an iPhone)
  11. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    Is there any type of Ijma on this issue (of when RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam were granted Nabuwah) - if so have Allama Sahib gone against it?

    Is it just a weak position that they hold on a Minor issue or is this a marginalised position which is against against Usul e Din?
  12. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    so, here is the urdu translation of ibn hajar's quote of ashraf'ul wasail taken from jawahir al bihar (urdu) vol-3 page 276-280. in ashraf'ul wasail it is at page 32.

    nubuwwat kay wujub or kitabat ka matlab is ka kharij main zuhur hay

    wujub and kitabat of nubuwwah means its existence (or appearance) in reality (externally)

    jawahir al bihar p276.png jawahir al bihar p277a.png jawahir al bihar p277b.png jawahir al bihar p278a.png jawahir al bihar p278b.png jawahir al bihar p279a.png jawahir al bihar p279b.png jawahir al bihar p280a.png

    i found these two and some other quotes from urdu translation of jawahir'ul bihar and verified from the originals in just few minutes. i am really perplexed that if a beginner like me can find these clear cut references then why not molana sai'eed as'ad sahab?
  13. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    okay, thank you.

    imam ibn hajar al haitamy rahimahullah clearly states that nubuwwah started from Rasulullah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem. i don't know what fatwa molana sahab will issue on him, and imam yousuf bin ismail nabhani who has considered and quoted it as perls of imam ibn hajar. there is no doubt that both of them believed that our prophet is the last prophet alihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem.

    in his jawahir al bihar, page 455, imam nabhani rahimahullah quotes from ibn hajar's minah al makkiyyah fi sharhi'l hamziyyah lil busiri

    jawahir al bihar p455.png

    a clear version from minah, page 322 verse 142

    minah al makkiyyah li ibn hajr al haitmy.png
    urdu translation from jawahir al bihar (urdu), vol-3 page 272

    jawahir al bihar v3 p272.png

    then in jawahir from page 457-459 imam nabhani quotes from ibn hajar's ashraf'ul wasail ila fahmi al shamail lil tirmidhi, the same argument of imam ghazali and imam subki's (rahimahumallah) answer which we have seen above in post # 10 of sidi abu Hasan from at ta'zim wa'l minah of imam subki

    jawahir al bihar p457.png
    jawahir al bihar p458a.png
    jawahir al bihar p458b.png
    jawahir al bihar p459.png
    see its urdu translation in next post because i cannot attach more than 10 images here.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
    Ghulam Ali, Unbeknown and Nawazuddin like this.
  14. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    Shaykh Abu Hasan
    I have no issue in replying and forwarding stuff. The problem I have is when people get aggressive in their responses and I don't want that. Posting quotes is great. However it may be beneficial to respond to the scans I posted below first.
    Shaykh Aqib Al Qadri
    I understand that Shaykh Abu Hasan is a pseudonym for online and they are great in what they do. If you aren't and want to challenge Allama Saeed Asad I can give you their number to challenge them directly. So you can get a direct response to your challenge. My intention for saying this is i do think a direct conversation would be best with them as they themselves are not 'online' as other scholars are.
  15. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    Shaykh Abu Hasan
    I have no issue in replying and forwarding stuff. The problem I have is when people get aggressive in their responses and I don't want that. Posting quotes is great. However it may be beneficial to respond to the scans I posted below first.
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    actually, noori bhai has more quotes that he has shared with me. he is reluctant to post because he said he won't reply again on this thread until the PDF or if it is a translation.

    i think noori bhai should go ahead and post the quotes - they are rather plain and we would like to know the opinion of mawlana saeed sahib about these ulama - and whether they are sunni.
    Ghulam Ali and Bazdawi like this.
  17. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    Game Over.

    Question: is this an Aqida issue?
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is no excuse for citing without context (such as the shifa quote) or mentioning other quotes. wAllahu'l musta'an.
    Bazdawi likes this.
  19. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    I guess the examples/reasoning they use in a debate with scholars and the examples they use with students may differ for obvious reasons. Differentiation perhaps. (I know I said I wouldn't post but just thought it may be relevant here to)
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    but why are they lying?

    this is a blatant lie.

    the first lie is, they [mawlana saeed and his students] say that: the belief, RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam was given nubuwwat first [and indeed sent last] is somehow new - no one held it before.

    second lie is attributing the opposite to shah abdu'l haq muhaddith dihlawi - sub'HanAllah. disagree if you want to, but do not lie or make false attributions.

    shah abdu'l Haq sahib has said talwiHan in ashi'atu'l lam'at and taSriHan in madarij al-nubuwwah that RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam was actually a prophet [bi'l fiyl] in the realm of souls; and then was sent as the last prophet in this world. these are original farsi clips:

    madarijfarsi v2p3.jpg

    translation by mawlana ghulam muyinuddin:

    madarij,urdu, v2p14.jpg

    in ashiyat al-lam'at, he answers the objection (which implies his own position expressly stated in madarij)

    ashiyat, v4p499a.jpg

    i got a chance to listen to clip#2 until 33 minutes; and i found mawlana saeed sahib selectively quoting (whether deliberately or ignorance, can't tell) and attributing positions to ulama, pathetic reasoning (that is when i told noori bhai that i was surprised that he is called a great munazir; you can disagree with me, but i find his reasoning pathetic - at least in these clips.) in fact i can quote sharh al-shifa that disproves saeed sahib's claim. [starting from 13:20 in clip#2, where he talks of karramiyyah and by that implication imam subki and shah abdul haqq are all karramiyyah! ma'azAllah]

    i will examine the second clip fully, in sha'Allah, but from the SAME sharh of shifa, here is a clip to ponder:

    Last edited: Oct 30, 2016

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