Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by AR Ahmed, Apr 4, 2023.

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  1. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    I think most, if not all us agree that Dr Ashraf Jalali should have or should apologise for his statement and take it back. As Mufti Zia ul Qadri points out that yes he can provide many evidences on this issue but in reality how is this going to benefit the unity of sunnis. His statement just gives further ammunition to the detractors. This is what has really wound me up about sunni scholars in the recent past, they all become proud of their 'tahqeeq' and become obstinate. Their followers or the sheeple then go crazy and make things a whole lot worse and who loses out, yes the sunnis. Our pious predecessors have already spoken on these issues, there is absolutely no need to go beyond that because there was wisdom in just simply explaining the viewpoint and leaving it. I got no time for so called scholars, who give emotional speeches and try to do takfir of Jalali sahib because it is the same scholars who either have insulted the sahaba in the past or never spoke up against it. The likes of Dr Kokab Noorani Sahib, Mufti Zia ul Qadri and the Ashrafi Mufti were measured and what they advised was correct. A lot of issues that are brought up have already been dealt with; so I see no point in new 'tahqeeq' and I certainly see no benefit in becoming obstinate on it as it will just cause these scholars to make the same mistakes the deos did all those years ago. What is badly missing for sunnis is leadership and everyone feels the need to fill that vacum by giving their view, and further widening the disunity. I hope you will see in my points that I have not limited the discussion to Jalali Sahib because this issue is just a microcosm of what the current state of Muslims in general and Sunnis specifically is Everyone wants to talk, few want to listen and fewer are showing sincerity and objectivity. At a time where we most need to be united , we are doing our best to cause disunity. We forget to be grateful for the immense blessing of being from the ummah of the Holy prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and even more being blessed to have been brought up in a Sunni household. As Alahazrat said: Ummati theri kismat per lakou salaam. Let's be grateful and sincere, especially towards our fellow Muslims. May Allah most High make us a sincere ummati of the Holy prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and give us death on kamil Iman. Ameen.
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I shared Kaukab Noorani sahib's response with someone (who is pro-Asif Jalali sahib) and was shown this shocking video in response:


    Unbelievable! He called Wahshi bin Harb radi Allahu anhu a zalim!

    Plus he's entertaining tasleem Sabri (I've been told he's a staunch minhaji) and that rafidi/pro-rafidi naatkhwan shahbaz qamar fareedi (I believe it was him who recited a Urdu/punjabi naat under a shower of money, something to the tune of 'we don't adhere to radi Allahu anhu, we say 3laihis salam' implying hazrat Ali radi Allahu anhu or Abu Talib)

    I know for a fact that in the not so distant past, Kaukab Noorani sahib used to call Tahir as padri and that he's been anti Tahir since the 80s when not many people even knew him. Don't know if that's still the case.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
  3. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    I have not watched the video with shah sahib and sayyidi noorani miya. i asked my cousin who is a follower of hadrat pir sayyid muzaffar shah sahib regarding why shah sahib was going on a program with tasleem sabri? he said shah sahib was not there to condemn allamah jalali sahib but rather to stop other people from making absurd comments on this issue and from insulting mawlana jalali.
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    mawlana irfan shah sahib is right. we should respect ahl al-bayt especially the ahl e qabaa. raDiyAllahu anhum ajma'yin.

    it is said that imam subki narrated the hadith where RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was angered by someone doing intercession for a lady who committed theft as she was from nobles; and he said that if so-and-so would commit theft Muhammad (sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam) will cut her hand. and our master mentioned the name of one of his family.

    it is said imam subki did not name the blessed lady who was mentioned as an example.

    this is adab. and why do people lose their focus?

    this is a hadith from bukhari and muslim. but other than narration, we must not repeat such ahadith out of respect to our elders. we wouldn't say: 'if your shaykh committed theft would you not cut his hand?" while this is hypothetical and the shaykh being non-prophet, possible shar'an as well as he is not ma'Sum. but one would not use their example, would they?

    may Allah ta'ala give us the tawfiq to be respectful.
    wa billahi't tawfiq.
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  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    disappointed. it is the responsibility of ulama to speak the haqq and guide people towards the correct mas'alah instead of ranting and venting their emotions.

    when 'our buzurg' commits open anthropomorphism (umar icharwi) nobody dares to call out such blatant kufriyat and anti-sunni aqa'id. but the nisbat of khata to sayyidah faTimah raDiyAllahu anha is such a big issue that everyone is ready to refute this. if they are not aware of the umar icharwi and "biz-zaat maujud on this earth", tell them; and let us see whether they will come out and speak about tanzih of Allah ta'ala or not. or whether tanzih is not an important issue, but nisbat of khaTa to sayyidah raDiyAllahu anha is the bigger crime.

    we will wait and see. hopefully they will rise to the occasion. in sha'Allah.

    if this is what our scholars do, the day is not far when people will be either wahabi or rafiDi. astaghfirullah al-azeem.

    i wouldn't be surprised if all of these ulama will begin their shola-bayani calling to burn sharh al-mawaqif and sharh al-maqasid.

    sh. al-maqasid vol.5 p.60

    sh. maqasid, v5p60a.png

    in the above, ulama have debated whether attribution of minor sin to prophets is permissible; our preferred position is as below (neither saghirah nor kabirah). but those who did not were not ruled kafir or gustakh/insolent either.

    when this is the stand about prophets, why should the nisbat of khaTa be such an issue (regardless of the asif jalali sahib's unwise choice of words):

    now i hope all these speakers will demand apology from imam al-a'azam or at the least leave his madh'hab and issue fatawa against him. or declare that sayyidah faTimah raDiyAllahu anha is greater than prophets.

    laa Hawla wa la quwwata illa billah.

    this is from fiqh al-akbar:

    fiqh al-akbar new.png

    the same from an older copy:

    fiqh al-akbar old.png

    وإلى الله المشتكى
    نسأل الله العافية

    my opinion: it is incorrect to attribute sayyidah faTimah with khaTa; but this is not disrespect or insult. the speaker has erred in his description, but the way ulama are responding as if it is kufr is extremely irresponsible. in this atmosphere - al-iyadhu billah (may i never be in such a position) but if i were in the position of asif jalali sahib, i would openly do ruju and say that i do tawbah for hurting the sentiments of muslims, saadat kiram and apparent disrespect or what is perceived as disrespect of sayyidah zahra raDiyAllahu anha; and my intention was not to hurt them but just to explain the mas'alah that only anbiya are ma'Sum and the belief that ahl al-bayt are ma'Sum is that of rawafiD. i have made a mistake and i request everyone to forgive and forget.

    however, nisbat of khaTa is not disrespect; and ahl al-bayt are not ma'Sum. by attributing khaTa to the ahl al-bayt, if it could be argued that it is disrespectful, it is still not apostasy.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.

    wAllahu a'alam
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
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  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    why are they saying sayyidah e ka'inat?

    does this not imply prophets in the ka'inat - so is sayyidah faTimah raDiyAllahu anha greater to them?
    does this not imply malayikah - hazrat jibril alayhi's salam in ka'inat and hence sayyidah is greater to him

    what about sayyidu'l ka'inat? sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam?

    what is happening to everybody?
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  7. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    Son of syed hashmi miyan has also expressed his opinions around 1 hr and 15 minutes in...

    I think he's being a bit unfair by implying Dr Jalali accused syedda radhiallah anhum of greed.
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Maulana Kaukab Noorani Okarvi sahib's response:

    To be honest, it was disappointing, not because of the stance he took or the describing of Sayyidah Nisaa al-3aalameen's fadilah (ma3az Allah), but because he didn't clarify the Ashari and Maturidi stance on the matter.

    I'm gonna rant with some peace of mind once I sit on the PC and not on fone.
  9. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    Syed irfan shah views

  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Sayyid Irfan Shah Mashhadi sahib's response:

    I have the audio on WhatsApp but that file type can't be uploaded here.
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Muzaffar Shah sahib's stance
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    what is the ruling on someone who says that: "a prophet committed a sin"

    here is a starter from nibras (hashiyah of sharh al-aqa'id).

    nibras, p605.png
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    how many of these people attacking asif jalali sahib take exception to the insults by wahabis deobandis? or do they hang around as buddies and swallow the ta'wils and in general act as if nothing happened? those who do not are the worst kind of munafiqin who make a racket about insult to sayyidah faTimah raDiyAllahu anha, but are unconcerned about insult towards her father SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    who is this guy? is he sunni or rafidi? why is he saying salwatullahi alayha with sayyidah faTimah raDiyAllahu anha? if he is a rafiDi, i don't want to bother. let him first become a muslim aur phir baat karenge.

    only prophets are ma'Sum. and only insult to prophets is kufr.

    while insults to SaHabah is deplorable, it is not kufr. some ulama said disrespecting the 4 khulafa as kufr (as in fiqh works) but that is deemed a fiqhi opinion. regardless, we MUST respect all SaHabah - including hazrat mu'awiyah raDiyAllahu anhu and others whom tafzilis/rawafid (khadhalahum-Allah) love to revile.

    however attributing 'khata'/error to SaHabah is NOT an insult. even anbiya have been attributed with khaTa and nobody called them kafir.
    even those who attributed sins to prophets were not ruled apostates, even though their position was repudiated.

    yet, here are people calling for takfir for "insulting" a non-prophet, with due respect to her high rank and stature - salawatullahi `ala abihaa wa alayhaa. [peace and blessings upon her father, and also upon her]

    this means either of the two:

    - that non-prophets are also ma'Sum from khaTa; this is the belief of rafizis. let the closet-rafiDis acknowledge this and spare sunnis.

    - that sayyidah faTimah raDiyAllahu anha is a prophet (al-iyadhu billah) and hence she is ma'Sum from khaTa.​

    which of the above two is preferred by the 'angry' folk? if there is a position between these two, please explain.

    as for the language employed by ashraf jalali sahib - whether it was justified or not, is a matter of adab and opinions differ on this.

    also the guy (in the video in first post) who appears to be a rafidi and he is upfront about his rage. that some (probably) rafidi woman made a baseless allegation on TV, and was roundly refuted by sunni ulama. now the rafiDis have found a space to enroll rafiDi-sympathisers in sunni garb and go after jalali sahib.

    the other video by an ashrafi aalim is measured and reasonable response.

    wAllahu a'alam.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is getting more and more weird. this maulvi sahib has no knowledge about kufr and takfir.
    either jahalat or he is influenced by rafizis.

    i sincerely advise this maulvi sahib to go and read some books.

    Noori and Ahmet Tayfur like this.
  15. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    Fatwa declaring dr Jalali a kafir unless he repents. From 44 minutes onwards.

  16. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Screenshots of the quotes presented in this video

    Attached Files:

  17. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member

    Pir mehr ali shah writes that ahl e bayt are NOT ma'soom. They can commit sin.

    If Hazrat Fatima made khata ijtihadi - and we know that khata ijtihadi does not entail sin but reward - then why was the work of Pir Mehr Ali even mentioned. The istidlal by the speaker seems incorrect.
  18. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Hanif Qureshi says sahabah committed sins.

  19. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    I've been seeing Molwis like Barkat Ahmad Chisti and Farooq Chisti attack Jalali sahib and try to say he is out of Ahlus Sunna. Whereas these molwi sahiban themselves are Tafzilis and supporters of the gustakh of Hazrat Amir Muawiya radhiallahu anhu

    These idiots are just that - idiots.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  20. Tālib ul-Haq

    Tālib ul-Haq New Member

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