Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by AR Ahmed, Apr 4, 2023.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    The reality is sunniyat either has a price or cannot prevent egos getting in the way. Jalali Sahib even though if he felt he explained the masla correctly, he should have apologised for using the word 'Khata'. This would have cooled down the fire and stopped his opponents from getting free shots in. He is now making clarifications and responses on a daily basis, and the matter is not dying down. Sometimes it is better to consider the bigger picture and put the unity of sunniyat first. His current stance is doing nothing for the betterment of sunnis.
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I've also heard from someone reliable that this is payback for that calling out that peer Hassan Haseebur Rehman guy on his tafzili bayan (regardless if he's an actual tafzili ideologue true to his manhaj or if he's just a khanqah shopkeeper and took off on an ego trip because he was called out), and of course some anti-Hassan innocent shuyukh too got afflicted.

    Do note that Dr Jalali's video in question is from January, and all this hoohaa started only in June. They really tried hard to find something against him.

    Also this multi millionaire Haseebur Rehman has very good links to foreign dignitaries and diplomats in Islamabad. So a lot of these murgha munching khanqah peers simply can't afford to not take his side. They need him to arrange foreign (western) visas for them so they can hold their foreign trips and build their fan followings over there, finance their gigs, and so on. This is true and an open secret in the peeri-mureedi "industry" regardless if Hassan and his stooges are behind Jalali's vilification or not!

    For many many people, Sunniyat too is nothing more than a cut-throat "industry".
  3. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    I'm not one for conspiracies but the witch hunt against dr jalali is being fuelled by factions who have an agenda against him. He's just given his opponents an opportunity and they're making the most of it
  4. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    People are really overreacting now. We all agree that sahabah and ahl al-bayt can commit khata ijtihadi. If it's possible for them, and we accept it even for prophets, like Adam عليه السلام, then how can it be insult?

    The most Mufti Ashraf Jalali has done is attributed khata ijtihadi to Sayyidah Fatimah رضي الله عنها when it wasn't actually a mistake. She wasn't aware of the hadith. Which is an opinion some ulama hold.

    1. To attribute khata ijtihadi to sayyidah isn't insult.
    2. If a person has attributed it whilst she didn't commit it, the person is simply mistaken. He hasn't insulted her. You can highlight his mistake.
    3. If a person has attributed it and sayyidah did commit it, the person is correct but it's best not to use the word khata out of respect for sayyidah.

    These fatawa that are flying about are ridiculous. It's pure extremity.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
    Ghulam Ali and hasan like this.
  5. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Sayyid Ahmad Saeed Kazmi on Fadak

  6. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    I publicly retract anything wrong I said about any alim including Mawlana Kokab Noorani Okarvi and from now on, in spite of any personal opinions, I will stay silent on this matter regarding Mawlana Jalali etc.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  7. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    Very enlightening message. Listen from 32:30 until 53:00.
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Shaykh Asrar on the issue

    The Indian army has amassed on the borders of Pakistan and increased its oppression and grip over occupied Kashmir. While this is happening the 'Sufi' Ulama of Pakistan, who make the majority, are busy with what they deem as Kalam issues when in reality they are not Kalam issues at all but divisive issues.

    We have a public that is polarised by secular thought on one side of the spectrum and on the other side rural and city people alike who have superstitious attitudes to religion with folklore 'Sufism'. The 'Ulama' should be busy teaching all sectors the attributes of Allah and their proofs, especially Existence as many secular Pakistanis deny God's existence. Those basic beliefs can be taught en masse. They are:

    (a) The twenty attributes necessarily true of Allah are His (1) existence; (2) not beginning; (3) not ending; (4) self-subsistence, meaning not needing any place or determinant to exist; (5) dissimilarity to created things; (6) uniqueness, meaning having no partner (Sharik) in His entity, attributes, or actions; (7) omnipotent power; (8) will; (9) knowledge; (10) life; (11) hearing; (12) sight; (13) speech; such that He is (14) almighty; (15) all-willing; (16) all-knowing; (17) living; (18) all-Hearing; (19) all-seeing; (20) and speaking—through His attributes of power, will, knowledge, life, hearing, sight, and speech, not merely through His being.

    (b) The twenty attributes necessarily impossible of Allah (21–40) are the opposites of the previous twenty, such as nonexistence, beginning, ending, and so on.

    (c) The one attribute merely possible of Allah (41) is that He may create or destroy any possible thing.

    The public unfortunately is not taught this and neither the basic proofs for such things. Instead, they are told slogans are belief and they should learn slogans and shout them in a fiery manner. The public has been programmed to think certain issues are necessary when they are not. There are issues that are being brought forth to the public that are disputed and not decisive yet the 'Ulama' and their followers make it out to be an essential creed. This ranges from what slogans you choose, the geocentric model of the universe and the stationary earth, to discussing Fadak, Jamal and Siffin to a public that barely knows the basics of the Creed or has never been told virtues of the prophetic household or the companions in general. The public should be made to sit in gathering where authentic hadith is recited on all these issues including virtues.

    Many people would be offended if a person said 'X, Y, or Z' great scholar was mistaken on the geocentric model of the universe. So how offensive can it sound when a mistake is ascribed to someone infinitely greater and you know that the audience listening cannot understand intricacies of fiqh terms and Kalam jargon? It seems there is no balance at all and people love to take extremes on all sides.

    An additional sad point is that many of those posing as 'Ulama' tend not to know how to read and understand Arabic which is the language of our religion. They just read Urdu books and even then on controversial issues and then they rush to do takfir of Muslims they disagree with. Those that do read Arabic limit themselves to the books of the Nizami curriculum and tend not to read around.

    It is time the Sanusi Creed is taught up and down Pakistan and India.

    Imam Ghazali (may Allah sanctify his secret) said something pertinent to our troubling situation when he warns regarding the harmful effects of disputes in Kalam.

    One harmful effect is that if we take the wrong approach, irrelevant to us being on the truth, we make the general public obstinate on falsehood:

    It has another bad effect, namely that it hardens heretics’ attachment to their heresy and makes it firmer in their hearts by stirring them up and increasing their resolve to persist. This harm, however, comes about through bigotry born of argument, which is why you see the ordinary unlearned heretic fairly easy to dissuade from his mistakes through affability; though not if he has grown up in a locale where there is arguing and bigotry, in which case if all mankind from beginning to end were to join together, they would be unable to rid his heart of wrong ideas. Rather, his prejudice, his heatedness, and his loathing for his opponents and their group has such a grip over his heart and so blinds him to the truth that if he were asked, “Would you like Allah Most High Himself to raise the veil so you can see with your own eyes that your opponent is right?” he would refuse, lest it please his opponent. This is the incurable disease that plagues cities and people: the sort of vice produced by bigotry when there is argument. This also is of the harm of kalam.

    As for its benefit, it might be supposed that it is to reveal truths and know them as they truly are. And how farfetched! Kalam theology is simply unable to fulfill this noble aim, and it probably founders and misguides more than it discovers or reveals. If you had heard these words from a hadith scholar or literalist, you might think, “People are enemies of what they are ignorant of.” So hear them instead from someone steeped in kalam theology, who left it after mastering it in depth and penetrating into it as far as any scholar can, and who then went on to specialize in closely related fields, before realizing that access to the realities of true knowledge was barred from this path. By my life, theology is not bereft of revealing and defining the truth and clarifying some issues, but it does so rarely, and about things that are already clear and almost plain before learning its details.

    Rather, it has one single benefit, namely guarding the ordinary man’s faith we have just outlined [the Jerusalem Creed] and defending it by the argument from being shaken by those who would change it with heresies. For the common man is weak and susceptible to the arguments of heretics even when false and the false may be rebutted by something not in itself especially good; while people are only responsible for the creed we have presented above (Ihya’ ‘ulum al-din (c00), 1.86).
    SaadSohail and Unbeknown like this.
  9. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @Yaseen To be fair he did say that he disagrees with Tahir ul Qadri on many issues and this praise should not be seen as support for him. Furthermore, he praised Tahir ul Qadri's choice of words and how how careful he was not to use any words that might entail disrespect. If you consider why Jalali Sahib has been criticised, it is because of his choice of words and not his understanding of the issue. I think we need to be objective and judge the truth by the truth, rather than get partisan. Dr Jalali Sahib should have just apologised and took his words back, as that would have cooled the issue down. Instead trying to justifying his statement has just given the detractors (the tafdhlis) an open goal to hoodwink the public into thinking nasabism and kharjism is rife in the ranks of sunnis. In this cauldron, even little mistakes are magnified and Jalali Sahib should have shown more restraint because those words were in bad taste. Above that when those statements were picked up on, he should have apologised and took his statement back.
    Isaac Amini likes this.
  10. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Why does it seem like public condemnation, refutation, and dissociation is first resort when something apparently controversial arises? In other areas of life people in the same occupation (not to say there's a comparison between say a doctor or lawyer and an Aalim) have bodies that oversee conduct, proceed with an investigation, if there is merit in trying it, call the person to provide their statement, see evidence, and hear witnesses. If and only if the process is fulfilled in its entirety does such a body make a finding of guilt and even then it may not outright remove the individual from the occupation and may instead caution, suspend, or fine the individual.

    This whole incident highlights the need for easily accessible knowledge on usul al-takfīr and the specifics of what exactly is sabb (insult/ghustakh) and what is the red line between implicit and explicit sabb. Some may counter with the argument that this may lead to individuals doing reckless takfir, but that's already happening whether or not such knowledge is circulated to the wider public. If anything, this should provide a basis for being cautious in recklessly labelling things kufr and recklessly doing takfir or tabd'i.
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Kaukab Noorani sahib has done rujoo3 from his disgusting comment, Wal hamdulillah

  12. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    We now have ulama praising Tahir ul Qadri on his understanding of this matter. The speaker was addressed by syed muzaffar shah as ustad al ulama onlyblast week...

  13. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Sorry got mixed up between the two Mufti Ashraf's.
    @Aqdas to be fair Mufti Ashraf ul Qadri has adopted this approach on many occasions of controversy. I remember something similar with the Ameer Muawiyya and Maulana Ilyas Qadri issue. May Allah most High protect those scholars who speak the truth and look to maintain the dignity of the scholar in question and the unity between sunnis. Ameen.We need more scholars like Mufti Ashraf ul Qadri.
  14. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

  15. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

  16. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Has he spoken on this issue too?
  17. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @Aqdas to be fair Mufti Ashraf ul Qadri has adopted this approach on many occasions of controversy. I remember something similar with the Ameer Muawiyya and Maulana Ilyas Qadri issue. May Allah most High protect those scholars who speak the truth and look to maintain the dignity of the scholar in question and the unity between sunnis. Ameen.We need more scholars like Mufti Ashraf ul Qadri.
  18. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    So far, this is the best and most balanced response I have seen on this issue. It avoids either extreme of shouting kufr or justifying Mufti Ashraf's words wholly.

    Sunnis should send this out to all and uncloud people's thinking.
  19. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @AR Ahmed: Brother I only watched the clip of Dr Kokab Noorani where he mentions that he was the first person to advise Dr Jalali sahib. Don't know if that was done privately or like you said in the form of tahrir.
    I also had not watched that video where he called a sahabi a 'zaalim'. That comment was very similar to Mufti Hanif Qureshi's one about Hazrat Abu Sufyaan. Both not factually incorrect but once they have become a sahabi, this sort of language about them is unacceptable and disrespectful. It just further highlights how our scholars are not exercising caution in their speeches and are not doing the utmost best to preserve the unity of the Jammat and the way of pious predecessors. I hope Dr Noorani Sahib will do ruju for this comment like he has asked of Dr Jalali Sahib, especially when in that video he says anyone that insults a sahabi, he has nothing to do with them.
    Brother to be honest, not a lot of our scholars command our respect anymore because too many just want to air their views and tahqeeq, and when they make a mistake, they don't seem very sincere in doing ruju. We don't see consistency with them either, they take a harsher stance in some issues than others. It does not help their followers become apologists for them. It is sorry state of affairs. Principles over personalities or we risk going the same way the deos did. Troubling times, May Allah most High keep our Iman strong and that we die on Islam and on the path of our pious predecessors. Ameen.
  20. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    I'm sorry to say I lost all respect for "mawlana" kokab noorani okarvi the moment this debacle started

    If okarvi sahib really had an issue, he would go out of his way to first privately contact mawlana jalali first and not issue a tahreer asking for a ruju.

    Furthermore, kokab noorani okarvi's statement on hadrat wahshi (radhiyAllahu anhu) is odious to say the least and highlights a double standard held by okarvi sahib

Share This Page