Huzoor Taajush Shariah on Their Picture Being Taken

Discussion in 'Multimedia' started by Aqib alQadri, May 11, 2015.

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  1. I think the apathy of our Sunni scholars has been clearly identified on this thread. Maybe we Internet savvy Sunnis should do something but who would take us seriously? A scholar should be refuted by a scholar. Still we do need to do more. If a Sunni scholar writes or has written a rebuttal of shaykh NI
    uh on alahazrat I'd be happy to translate it.
  2. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    At the time I heard Pirzada Imdad Hussain Saheb was preparing a response to Shaykh Nuh but not heard anything since.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ay raza har kaam ka ik waqt hai
    dil ko bhi aaram ho hi jaayega
  4. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    That, I believe, explains the sad state of our affairs. It wasn't rational of you to have left your refutation halfway in expectation that someone else would take it up. (although, it would have certainly helped if someone more highly acclaimed in public sphere had published the refutation)

    Let's face it. Our ulemas/mashaykhs are not internet-savvy. I doubt if any of them have accessed internet and first-hand realised the enormity of one Nuh Keller's tract. How many of our ulemas of ever heard of someone by the name of Nuh Keller and figured out what following he commands world-wide? At most, few of them might have seen the tract after their murids/students would have printed them out. How many of them were able to comprehend the article in English? Why blame those who have little realisation of the 'cyber'-storm created by Nuh Keller's article?

    I heard that Huzoor Taaj ush Shariah planned to write the refutation in Arabic and English. I'm not sure what happened to it.

    People who should have foremost reacted to Nuh Keller should have brothers like abu Hasan, who can not only comprehend the article but also realise the enormity of situation. No matter how insignificant you felt your effort would have been, it was worth the effort. Although it is too late to rake the issue again, the least that can be done is an appropriate response be put in public domain (so that people who want to revisit this debate at later point can see that Nuh Keller has been roundly refuted).


    After one scum (Ihsan Ilahi Zahiri) wrote a pathetic book called "al-Barelwiyya", a personality of the stature of Allama Abdul Hakim Sharf Qadri refuted Illahi's puerile allegations in his book "al-Barelwiyyah ka Tahqeeqi aur Tanqeedi Jaiza". While resourceful deobandis translated al-Barelwiyya into English and posted it online, no so-called Barelwi has been able to muster enough effort to translate Allama Sharf Qadri's refutation.

    Only decent (but partial) refutation came from Shaykh G F Haddad. Sad and shameful indeed is our inertia.
  5. The Emir

    The Emir Well-Known Member

    While I have respect for Azhari Miya sticking so steadfastly to his position, it is a view hardly shared by any of the senior scholars today. almost all scholars allow the use of photography obviously subject to certain criteria. The debate relating to video usage has been fairly comprehensively decided as well with no more than one or two senior scholars still calling it 'haram.'

    We need to move on and concentrate on different things. After Azhari Miya there isn't anyone left in Bareilly Sharif who will be taken seriously as a top scholar - and unfortunately the stance Azhari Miya has taken on video usage has meant that his discourses, speeches etc have not been viewed by most sunnis. All the decent work on a'la Hazrat is being done away from Bareilly Sharif.

    NJ is right when he says that too many in our khanqah are living off the name of their buzrugs and not becoming scholars and doing the work their forefathers did. Look at Ajmer Sharif, Data Darbar, Pakpattan, Delhi - where are the scholars in these places?? The only major shrine I can think of where there are many scholars is Kicchocha Sharif and one or two are now being seen in Badayun Sharif where A'la Hazrat (rehmatullahi alay) went to become a murid.

    When someone becomes a scholar from a major shrine they can yield great influence but we seem to be in reverse at the moment in many places.

    CHISHTI Well-Known Member

    No worries brother's just that i hear that alot and it kinda cheeses me off...i was probably a little over sensitive.

    I totally agree about the urdu contribution...If all the Ulema just translated the works which have been produced in urdu into arabic then i actually think nobody would even look at the deobandis...such is the high calibre of Indian/Pakistani Ulema.
  7. Sidi, :s1:

    Why does work only have to be in Arabic to be Islamically important? Pir Naseer´s :ra: Naam o Nasab is a work of exacting scholarship and research and easily up to the highest academic standards.He also has other equally impressive scholarly works in Urdu.

    The vernacular Islamic languages are also important. Yes, Sunnis should do work in Arabic too -- especially to refute the lies of the Deobandis regarding Ala Hazrat--and translate our great works into Arabic (e.g. Jaa al Haq) but I get mightily cheesed off when people dismiss work done in Urdu or Panjabi or Farsi etc. as if only English and Arabic were important. Yes, those ulama living in English speaking countries should produce works in English...

    Which person, Arabi or ajami, has in recent decades written a work of sira which is the equal of Pir Karam Shah´s Zia al Nabi صلى الله عليه وسلم? I´d like to know! (That is something we should translate into Arabic btw and into English, French, German, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese etc.)
  8. Brother Chisti,
    If that was how it came across I didnt mean it as an insult. I actually tried to make exactly the point you´ve so eloquently made in the portion I´ve quoted here. The converts to Islam ARE refreshing and are doing all the stuff which the subcon sunnis should be doing! Again, I apologise, my aim was never to belittle the great converts. I´m a great admirer of the traditional converts like Shaykh Nuh (despite his faux pas about Ala Hazrat´s fatawa al Haramayn), Shaykh Hamza, Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad, and, of course, our beloved Shaykh GF Haddad (who is an Arab convert from Christianity) etc. They seem to have their fingers on the pulse of the Sunni youth, certainly in the West which ulama from Muslim countries still dont.

    CHISHTI Well-Known Member

    .."turning to converts" NJ we converts are Muslims make us sound like a seperate entity...remember some of the greatest of the Ummah were converts...and i would turn to them any day.

    If somebody becomes a Muslim and studies traditionally then what is wrong with following what they say?...or is this a racial thing?

    Maybe the youngsters are sick and tired of the emotional baggage which comes with certain subcon. ulema and believe what the "converts" have to say is refreshing.

    Great ulema can have differences amongst themselves but i thought that differing with adab was one of the hallmarks of Ahlus Sunnah and resorting to insults was the lot of the sectarians.

    Allah Ta'ala knows best.
  10. muslim 1st Sunni 2nd

    muslim 1st Sunni 2nd Active Member

    We respect the opinions of our Ulema but to say that there isn't room for differences on the issue of TV/Video is too extreme in my view.

    By saying this he is saying the vast majority of our Sunni Ulema are committing sins by appearing on TV. Rizvi scholars such as Hazrat Allama Tauseef Raza Kahn, Maulana Shakir Rizvi and others go against Huzoor Taj-us-Shariah's ruling.

    The followers of Huzoor Taj-us-Shariah then label anyone who goes against their ruling as being misguided. Some mutual respect would be very much appreciated.
  11. Bismillah hir rahman al-rahim

    I'm too little of a person to even comment on someone whose stature is so high like Sayyidi Taj-us-Shari`ah.

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2010
  12. kattarsunni2

    kattarsunni2 Guest

    Sidi Wadood, my point in the previous post was this:

    That whenever a SPECIFIC topic related to a fatwa or an opinion is discussed and the opinion of certain U'lama is mentioned, people do not answer the evidences presented but go onto as questions such as what have they done?

    How many madrassah's have they opened? How many U'lama have they produced? How many works have they written? etc etc

    Now the problem i have with this is the following:

    1) This is not dealing with subject at hand (for instance picture taking or any other issue), and is going off topic.

    2)Those same questions can be asked of ALL Sunnis globally. The general state is lethargic.

    And Shaykh Badr's chains and works or that of Makki alKattani are relevant, because some of the latters students are still alive, and Makki alKattanis children are still alive, he only passed away in the 50's.
  13. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    I do not believe using Shaykh Badr al-Din and Shaykh al-Kattani as examples is fair. NJ is talking about the past few decades.

    These questions are not related to what NJ is talking about. No one's stopping contemporary scholars from publishing works, while publishers are plenty.

    The above does make a point. Since we cannot generalize on al-Azhar al-shareef, we cannot generalize on al-Bareilly al-shareef.

    I do not believe that is a fair comment. Al-Azhar is heralded by the puppet govts as the greatest "Sunni School on earth". So, why would not the committees in it, govt sponsored, invite the pope. But we cannot generalize on the 'ulama in al-Azhar.

    Some people from Birmingham, and those who reside on SunniTalk, have the idea, that those who point fingers on the Barelvi ulama in the Sub Continent, ought to point fingers on the "arab 'ulama" as well.

    I say this is bad policy. There are other ways to counter those who criticize Barelvi 'ulama and make fun of them.

    That is true. Even in Somalia, and Indonesia, the concentration of laxed Sufis, and false Pirs is plenty.

    The numbers of false Pirs in Egypt is not hidden to those who have been there. So why should we throw out these examples to shut the mouths of those Sub Continental Sunnis who criticize their own Sub Continental scholars?

    In addition, brother NJ is a very genuine brother. He is only criticizing the 'ulama of Bareilly in comparison to the works produced by their recent ancestor Mufti 'Azam al-Hind. He is only pointing towards a sudden decline.

    Ofcourse such examples in the Arab world are plenty. Brothers and sisters on Sunniport are aware of the situation in the Arab world as well, thankyou.
  14. kattarsunni2

    kattarsunni2 Guest

    But this question can be asked of many people.

    For instance, where are the chains of ahadith for Shaykh Badr alDin alHasani?? What have his successors done with the Shaykhs chains? Why are they lost?

    Where are the 40 works or so Shaykh Badr alDin wrote? Why have only two works been published, and those only recently?

    Where are the hundreds of works Shaykh Makki alKattani has written? Only a small number have been recovered. Why?

    That is true of the whole SUNNI/SUFI world, with the few EXCEPTIONS in every country.

    Why is Imam Shafi's mazar kept in bad shape by the Arabs and Egyptians specifically? Where are the Shafi' Ulama of today? Why do they not look after the grave of this major mujtahid rahimahu Allah???

    No fatwa validating riba or dog meat has come from Bareilly, or unity with other religions, as has come from alAzhar and Hasoun of Syria.

    The Ulama of Bareilly have never invited the pope to the grand Ummayad Masjid and then walked behind him like the Mufti of Damascus has done. Or like the Deobandi U'lama inviting Indira Ghandi.

    So many examples from Morroco to India of laxed Sufis can be mentioned.

    Can you mention those contributions? What major hadith commentary or tafsir have the generality of Sufis accross the globe produced in the modern age in Arabic?

    In the middle east the Sufis keep mentioning Deobandi works. But what works have the Sufi Ulama in the middle east produced in comparison to the Deobandis. It is very unfair to always expect Bareilly to do everything. What has anyone done from the general Sunnis?

    Why big up mediocre commentaries on Tirmidhi etc have the Sufis of the middle east not written anything this century?
  15. kattarsunni2

    kattarsunni2 Guest

    Two issues must be looked at:

    Is there ijma' on making pictures and statues of animate beings haram? Imam Nawawi mentions that there is ijma' on them being haram.

    However, does this extend to picture taking in modern format or not?? According to Mufti Sahib it does. This shows why he is so strict on the issue. The way he would see it is that this is opposing ijma'.

    2nd issue: Is there anyone qualified enough to do real ijtihad in the Muslim world today? No one is opposed to ijtihad., but the question is who is a Mujtahid within the schools today?

    As far as i can see is that anyone who is apparent is a naqil (copier), some more competent than others, but nevertheless copiers.

    So according to Akhtar Rida (hafidhahuAllah) there is ijma' and this ijma' extends to modern picture taking.

    And there are no real mujtahids capable of doing ijtihad.
  16. rant:

    with a sad heart since i'm proud of my "Barelviyat" and have been defending it online and offline for the last 20 years i have to ask what the ulema of bareilly sharif have done since the passing away of mufti i azam hind :ra: ?

    i do agree that the shaykh mufti akhtar raza khan sahib is right in that it is a matter of privacy and private choice and if he doesnt want his photo taken people should respect his decision however one shouldn't say that it is such an issue in which difference of opinion is not allowed! why do sunnis anaethematize each over of trivialities and 'my pir is bigger than your pir'?
    i recall the big split between bareilly sharif and kichhaucha sharif not so long ago which made sunnis look silly and gave our whole maslak a bad name...

    then people wonder why youngsters are leaving the traditional ulama and turning to converts...

    with all due respect, other than being a descendent of sayyidi alahazrat :ra: and living of his name what has huzoor taajush shariah done? before people accuse me of being biased or rude the same can be said of 95% of sunni gaddinasheens today from indo-pak; they're just living of their illustrious ancestors' name and work. pir sayyid naseeruddin naseer :ra: was a rare exception who, whilst being proud of being huzoor tajdaar e golra's :ra: descendent, did his own work in his own right and didn't JUST rely on saying,'main pir mihr ali shah ka parpota hoon' as is the trend amongst most sunnis today. you should bow down before me and kiss my hands because my Xth generation grandfather was a wali! (that we respect them nevertheless is a different matter.) i have to say that prof. tahir ul qadri is also one who, despite some controversies associated with him (initiated it has to be said by said shaykh) has made his own name and not relied on being the mureed of huzoor sayyid tahir allaudin gilani :ra: .

    and im not mureed in any of the mentioned gharanas although i respect them all so i'm not biased.
    (i met hazrat mufti manaan raza khan in birmingham a few years ago and was impressed by his demeanour.)
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ironically, the objections raised by the shaykh in his book for using tv easily apply to the internet.
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    with due respect to the shaykh, he is being unfair with others who allow pictures.

    frankly, i found mawlana madani miyaN's piece on this issue more scholarly, sound reasoning and grounded in usul than the tract 'tv aur radio ka operation' which tripped badly on fallacies.

    ar-radd 'ala man akhlada ila'l arD wa jahila anna'l ijtihada fi kulli aSrin farD is an important work by imam al-suyuti that proves that ijtihad (in newer issues) is not only possible but also farD in every age. even alahazrat has mentioned this in his fatwa that muftis will have to find solutions to newer problems in each age. i sometimes think that if alahazrat were alive today, he would probably be an outcast, as many muftis would slam him for his 'audacity' of revising opinions of elders.

    the fatwa itself is not as heart-wrenching as the divide among sunnis it left in its wake. and the acrimony and hatred among the murids. and the refusal of compromise by some people - even though some well-meaning ulama tried to bring both sides together.

    surely, the shafiyis and hanafis differed on farayid within salat (whether fatihah is wajib or the additional recitation is farD) without ruling each other as fussaq; and this is such a far removed furu'u. is the issue of pictures Haram qaaTiy such that one who denies it becomes a kafir? al-iyadhu billah.

    i respect the personal choice of scholars who are careful and wary - but terming those who have taken pictures are guilty of being worldly scholars is very very unfair. apparently, shaykh ahmed zayni dahlan himself - alahazrat's own hadith master - posed for a picture. (if the pics on the internet are to be believed).

    i don't know who, but some scholars/people will have to answer for the sorry state of sunnis in india in the past two decades for misguiding (or failing to guide them) the public and creating a fitna out of a trivial issue. as if giving answers to the public and striving for harmony among them is somebody else's problem. many junior maulvis in the two groups (who might be old now) made the followers of alahazrat a laughing stock with their phampleteering and counter-phamplateering: calling each other anything and everything.

    na cheRo dardmandon ko, na jaane dil se kya nikle...

    wAllahu ta'ala a'alam.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  19. Azhari Miyan

    Azhari Miyan New Member

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