Irfan Shah Mash'hadi in the Tafzili/Rafizi camp

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Sunni Jaag, Mar 6, 2021.

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  1. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    This account is not open in public but witnessed by myself and perhaps a couple of others who were sat at the front of the bus. If I name and shame the individual it will come under gheebat. And this was not the only account, just one of many that I witnessed since I was there in person with this group.

    There is also the case where we need to make others aware of an individual to safeguard others which does not come under gheebat, but this case perhaps does! Better to caution.
  2. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    Name and shame him bro. Another problem we have is brushing things under the carpet for damage control, hence, the vicious cycle continues....
  3. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Recently Sunni scholars of the UK released a statement requesting Irfan Shah Mashhadi to repent on 21 matters of Aqa'id and Shari'ah. This video provides the evidence for that statement.

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  4. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    Its Mirpuri
  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    heard him speak Punjabi for the first time : )

    if I understood him correctly, he is saying that even "Allamah" is a very big title.

    unfortunately I have seen in my own local masajid people being promoted as "allamah" - without there being any independent standard to justify the title against.

    it seems that these things are now in the hands of the guy who designs posters for mahafil.

    Over the years I have observed a gradual progression in the titles - so someone who was declared a 'mawlana' in last year's poster, becomes an 'Allamah' this year.

    and what happens to last year's "allamah sahib" - well, you got to acknowledge the creativity of these poster designers, one of them gets to be [left off to prevent identification].

    I asked one mawalana (who used to be a fast friend of mine until a couple of years ago) how could pir xyz be called an "allamah" when even his being an "alim" is uncertain. He insisted that there is no difference between mawlana, allamah etc. these are just cultural titles everyone uses these days - so if I promote the pir as "Allamah", what's the harm.

    No prizes for guessing what appellation this indifferent mawlana received in next year's poster....
  6. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Looking back the pivotal moment was when the senior ulema visited Jalali Sahib. In that meeting, things could have been resolved if both parties pushed it more.

    Public opinion shifted on the issue after Shah Sahib's infamous Narawol conference and it has been downhill since. I think they have lost all credibility now and will do well to recover it.
  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    "believing" is a strong word, I meant "entertaining the possibility"

    mea culpa - I do not have that knowledge either.

    I also agree that:
    1. we must go by the simplest available explaination
    2. we must play the devil's advocate not just against our opponents but also our friends
    3. and not accept charges just because they are emotionally appealing
    4. we should never hesitate to pitch an idea/thought on sunniport, however absurd, because we are never the worse for it :)
  8. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    Shaykh Asrar Rashid on Jahil peers influencing Ulama.

    What Shaykh mentioned towards the end about Iran Shahs swearing and his ta'wil for it could have been the catalyst for how he's turned out. Or he could have just been a Munafiq from day1 and felt obligated to play the part of the Sunni lion because that's what he was promoted as and visa, income and links depended on at that point. Allah knows best.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    "professional" jealousy taking a turn for the worse...?

    his very first response when the rawafid and tafdilis lashed out at Ashraf Jalali was this over the top emotional blackmail. he could have easily sided with Jalali or even disagreed with him in a 10 minute level-headed bayan explaining why it's not right to attribute khata in this particular case

    post # 20 on this thread -ā.14514/page-27#post-68748

    instead he started with that sheyr, and graduated to taslim sabri interview and his gaali speech and so on.

    i don't agree with my Sunni friends and older brothers who have said that 'Ashraf Jalali too could have simply done a ruju3 and saved the Sunni awam from all this headache/fitnah. he just couldn't keep silent and took it on his ego and gave conference after conference, seminar after seminar, etc. and made matters worse'

    exactly the same can be said for this tafdili/pseudo-rafidi bunch!

    i fail to see how/why is Jalali counted as the one who 'made matters worse' here and not the likes of iran shah, neefa, riaz shah, that peer with the russian orthodox imama etc
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i do not claim to have definitive knowledge, but from what i have seen - he made some errors and then kept digging the hole further. there could be other factors: family, friends, relatives, emotional blackmail, false praise going to one's head, inability to understand the implications and a genuine change of heart or change of opinion, some other personal issues that were held to ransom and so forth.

    in a fight between friends, when one is in a precarious position - there will be offer of help from enemies. a man's mettle is proven here. if he accepts their help, it is inevitable that he will have to go over to their side sooner or later. at the least, he has been neutralised - he cannot fight them without facing the fact that they did him a favour.

    some people refuse help of enemies outright and prefer to be defeated by friends, rather than compromise on one's own principles.
    some people take their help choose to be neutralised. some others cross over to the other side.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
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  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i disagree. major triggers might not have been visible to you and me sitting in distant lands and just watching some bayans on youtube, but to those in his circle, they certainly could/would have seen signs.

    this is what happens when people are lax, awam as well as ulema. it brings me back to this whole argument of peer-worship and all these peers being these emperors with new clothes.

    going with this funds embezzlement case, just for argument's sake, let us assume the accusations are right.

    then why on earth are they brought up only now when irfan shah has violated aqidah?

    why wasn't there any accountability earlier on when he was a real or perceived "tanatan" Sunni?

    those who knew about it back in the day, why did they keep quiet about it?

    is Sunni aqidah the only clean chit we require for public personalities? (my take: no. it's the first and most important one, but not the only one)

    if a peer (in his 50s) on the right Sunni aqidah is a known chichora who publicly eve teases females and openly watches bollywood item songs passing vulgar comments, and the mureeds and "scholars" around him turn a blind eye to it, only because he is from an esteemed family and because his father was a pious wali (really), is that acceptable? (real life example, not irfan shah)

    if a peer has never answered regarding funds he has collected for xyz deeni pursuits and has nothing to show for it either, shouldn't that raise eyebrows with those who have donated (or offered zakat and sadaqaat)?

    if a peer travels business class and stays in luxury presidential suites in five star hotels all on mureed-funding, shouldn't that raise eyebrows with those around him? sure, we can soothe ourselves saying they can be gifts or nazranae aqeedat and not haram, but given our times, shouldn't we be at least twice as cautious of such a person?

    i could right now talk about "tanatan" Sunnis who have not deviated aqidah-wise, but their mureeds turn a blind eye to any and every matter of public accountability (religious, financial or otherwise) and i can bet were they to violate Sunni aqidah (ma3adh Allah), their mureeds would gladly follow them down the rabbit hole.

    it's very simple - every public figure must be held up to public scrutiny on ALL matters that are of public interest, and being a "tanatan" Sunni in beliefs doesn't exonerate a person on other issues.

    if it ain't this way, we'll be left scratching our heads how did this or that happen without any major triggers.

    the major trigger is right there - the awam and other otherwise sincere and good ulema giving "clean chits" to a long list of ruthless celebrities on a long list of issues (religious or worldly) only to one day run into a major headache like this. the list of naatkhwans and their shenanigans is even longer.

    let alone cross questioning many questionable aspects of QZA, so many sincere and good non-celebrity Sunni ulema are still scared to get into a leadership position and denounce tahir as a murtad.

    ps. i agree with @abu Hasan posts that good people can lose their way and bad people can reform. my comment is from a different angle of @abu Hasan and @Unbeknown discussion - that lack of accountability IS the major trigger in this whole peer-parasti game, and that small laxities becoming the new normal, eventually lead to even further more laxities becoming the newer normal, till we face issues like this.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
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  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the simple explanation is: he has lost his way.

    exceptional behaviour can be explained ONLY by an unholy past is an absurd argument which means that good people can NEVER go astray; because those who lose the way have been evil from the beginning!

    as if bal'am was not an aarif but a fraud from the beginning; and iblis was no aabid, but was plotting to disobey from a very early time.

    the fact is: good people lose their way; and bad people stumble upon the right path. we ask Allah ta'ala to keep us on the right path.


    circumstances. it is convenient for his current friends - and he cannot challenge it because of many reasons: he cannot contradict his friends, he cannot argue with accusations of volte face, etc.

    i do not have knowledge of ghayb and i take things on face value concerning such issues. there is no harm in believing that irfan shah was fine until he slipped. of course, it could be some years ago (following the pir nasir issue) but certainly the conviction with which irfan shah of 90s speaks is difficult to believe as an act. if indeed it is, he probably deserves an oscar for such natural acting.

    part and parcel of going out of the way. every person who goes out of ahl al-sunnah will contradict his teachers (by virtue of being a sunni prior).

    pointless and circular arguments. it is natural that a new convert is showered with attention and his past enmity forgotten.
    but can that be evidence of his harbouring such beliefs even in the past?

    after choosing a new platform, he will go about defending his new friends, new belief-system. and obviously, he will try to twist his past actions to seem congruent with current behaviour.

    i do not know why we need to keep 'correcting' the past or digging into it.

    - people change. good people choose evil ways; and evil people turn over a new leaf and become good. this is a commonly observed human trait.

    - people change over time. some people with deep-seated biases and extreme prejudices let go of them; and people who have been fair and balanced veer over to extreme opinions. look at saeed as'ad who deplored pir nasir and even termed him a wahabi; and then after a few years, he is now in irfan shah's camp for those very same opinions.

    - as for us, we are not burdened with what people do. if they are good, we praise them. at one point, we used to refer to keller as 'shaykh' keller. but when he left the straight path, we refuted him, his lies and slander.

    - in an old video irfan shah himself says something to this effect: "if i leave the path of ahl al-sunnah, then leave me and follow the sunni path"

    - whatever past videos i have seen of irfan shah, apart from his shouting and sometimes bad choice of words, i don't find him batting for the shiah. rather, he forcefully refutes them. so i don't have any reason to doubt that he was putting on a class act.

    - concerning his current swimming in a soup: he is wrong and he should repent. and he will be refuted so long as he remains in this state.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.​
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
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  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I guess people are trying to make sense of this sudden and obstinate turn-around - without any major trigger visible for it.

    It's only natural to dig into history to explain a novel conduct - when it's come all of a sudden.

    While I second the caution on making charges of embezzlement - I feel that the "closet tafzili" charge rests on firmer ground- because:

    1. His own brother has made a public pro-rifd speech - in his presence - and he did not issue any disclaimers
    2. His current "friends" have themselves claimed that he had ulterior motives for his past "sunni" conduct - and he has neither challenged their accusations nor distanced himself from them
    3. He has gone to such lengths in endearing himself to the tafzili/rafidi crowd - in utter disregard not only to his own past record but also to a whole host of former friends, not to mention venerable teachers
    4. His "new" friends have taken to him so "quickly" that one wonders "how new" they are, if at all that
    5. His remorseless misbehavior on screen and subsequent defense of all of that

    Can't we be excused for believing that this exceptional behavior can only be explained by an unholy past?

    wa Allahu a'alam
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i don't like the turn the discussion is taking. and i advise brothers to refrain from getting involved or talk about things we do not have hard proof about.

    grave charges cannot be based on generalisation (some peer did it, so also this one), deduction (how else could he do this? hence, he did this), hearsay (they said x,y; so it must be true) induction (there was a scam once upon a time; this has all the signs of such a scam) or retrospective implication (he was like this all the while but concealed it).

    irfan shah has made a grave error in aqidah and has deviated from the path of ahl al-sunnah. those issues are a matter of public record. all of us who can, have to refute this heresy.

    however, the focus is slowly shifting on irfan shah's personal actions etc which may or may not be true and not easy for us to verify or hold him to account. he may also have excuses to justify his actions - plausible or not.

    therefore, we must refrain from commenting or accusing irfan shah of embezzlement merely as a follow-up of our criticism of his deviance in aqidah and path of ahl al-sunnah.

    i am not exonerating irfan shah - but only wondering aloud how can we discuss these issues / accusations without evidence that can stand scrutiny in a court of law?

    we must be just at all times. nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.

    brothers who are discussing this may be privy to some information, but if they cannot share it publicly, they should remain silent.

    public accountability for public money is a must.
    people have asked questions about how this or that has been done, and pointed out that things do not add up well.

    but if you ask me - i have no means of ascertaining facts and i cannot sign off on jalali sahib camp in this matter, just because we are on the same side in matters of aqidah. the safest option is to keep quiet in such matters where we cannot ascertain the truth ourselves.

    if you remember, i had said the same thing about accusations on pir abdulqadir of E11.
    not our business.

    it could be the case. but it could also be possible that he bought it with his own money and named it 'madrasah'. perhaps he had an intention of doing so. just a name cannot imply that he took donations and misappropriated the money.

    you are building on a previous hypothesis and quoting it as a fact. much like the 'origins of life' scientists, who keep making up hypotheses and in subsequent theories, quote unsubstantiated assumptions as empirical facts and then build upon it.

    you do not have to convince me. just ask yourself if you are able to answer: "how do you know? what is your proof?"
    if you do, then by all means you have the right to say what you have said.
    and if you do not, the remaining silent is a better option.

    as a general observation, it is correct. "fear Allah, even if it is about half a date"
    but any serious accusation would require one to furnish proof.

    there is another way of ascertaining misappropriation / misuse of public funds:

    1. X collected an amount of money which is public fund "P".

    2. X should be asked to put the statement in public: how much was collected and how much was spent, and in what manner?

    3. if they cannot provide the details or refuse to do so, a specific statement can be made that X has misused fund "P". or an even more cautious statement: "public funds collected by X for fund "P" have not been accounted for." yet, we cannot generalise that every purchase or spending of X is from the fund "P".

    4. those who have contributed to the fund and/or in a position to demand accountability must do it; and until misuse is confirmed, either because X did not submit accounts or because the accounts clearly indicate fraud, the public at large must remain silent.​

    every word or action of ours - must be checked with the "sincerity monitor": if i am asked about this on judgement day - can i substantiate it?

    wa billahi't tawfiq.

    PS: i am also not convinced with the argument that irfan shah was a tafzili all along and he hid behind a mask for so long. in my opinion, he slipped somewhere and his ego prevented him from acknowledging that slip. and from there onward, he kept going down. Allah knows best.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
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  15. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    The day of reckoning is closer than they think, whether Syed or non Syed, there is no escape.

    A tiny morsel of haraam is enough for a severe reckoning, forget about usurping money from whole masses. Unfortunately the problem is not just Iran Shah but a huge mass of these Peers who think they are above all. They know nothing about even the basics of shariat and even if they know they do not act upon it. And we all know the hadith about the alim who knows but did not act upon what he learned!

    Let me share an example of my own account on one of my umrah trips with some UK "Peer" group. We took a bus for ziyarat in Makkah then the peer announced in the bus for people to give something to the driver as a tip. Then in front of my own eyes the peer checked the amount of money collected and just gave a very tiny fraction of the amount to the driver. The rest went in his pocket.

    We all know what a tough life these poor desi drivers have in Saudi. That money belonged to the driver and it was haraam for the Peer to do that, not to mention the multiplication of this haraam in the Haram Shareef!
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  16. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    Buildings registered for public religious worship are exempt from business rates, council tax, sewerage charges etc. Back in the days some folk would register their homes as places of religious learning for the kids in their communities, after a while close it down and continue to take advantage of the exemptions. Iran Shah has just done it on a larger scale and got the public to put up the money for purchasing the property by way of Sadqah and Zakat no doubt. Basically he's modified a old scam from the looks of it.

    Sadaat can't accept Zakat, but this guy has found a way to funnel it into his project and thus is making use of it now directly for his personal use and lavish lifestyle.
  17. Sunni Jaag

    Sunni Jaag Active Member

  18. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    The video I posted mentions that as well.

    The fact that it is named as a women's madrasa implies that it is not purchased from his own money but rather it is public funds! And Iran Shah couldn't have pulled it off without first gaining trust and deceiving the sunni masses.

    Big business, become a Peer! And then have the audacity to look down upon and ridicule the ulema who have actually spent a life time learning the religion.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  19. Muhammad Ali

    Muhammad Ali Veteran

    Irfan Shah recently purchased a factory in Bradford. Fatmiyah Womens College, not one girl is studying there. Him and his whole family have moved into the place and are currently living there free. You can check and confirm this with his mureeds.
  20. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    There are two things here, love of dunyawi glitter but still earning through halal means only, then there is the more serious matter - usurping people's donations! In case people haven't watched this yet then do watch. This is about funds collected by Iran Shah since he set foot on UK soil. If the allegations are indeed true then this just further confirms Iran Shah's real intentions all this while.


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