mufti nizamuddin's Fatwa on Obaidullah Azmi

It's fine. You can go ahead and consolidate it or if anyone else wants to help out it would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

Sure I will attach it here. Please just send me a list of the evidences you want to attach to it, links, pics, etc. Please just consolidate them in one post

 

Thanks brother. I will wait for you to send through the inquiry.

 

DI only has a strong presence in India. The scholars from Bareilly are in the thick of this dispute. Yet they are shy to issue a fatwa on obaid by name, so far. I hope in the coming days they will issue one. Otherwise it might raise question marks on their credibility.

 

Brother chisti-raza, your sarcasm is getting the better of you. I told you very clearly us commenting on videos here is one thing, a legal ruling by muftis on a specific matter is something else. Why stop at nazim? See all of our comments here on tahir as well based on his videos. See what I said about obaid based on videos.

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if you really need to get sarcastic, here's my open challenge to you.

ok we will both make specific by name istifta on obaid. Provide me whatever evidences you need, video links etc.

let us get a fatwa from Azhari Miyan on obaid by name, and also from DI.

is that fair?

what shall we do if we don't get a fatwa from one or both of DI and Bareilly?

 

No worries, even though Dawat e Islami claim a strong presence in India.

Ok. Thanks for putting that out there.

No worries brother that you can't put forward the requested inquiry. Don't worry about it. I'm sure that someone else here can gather this together and post it here so that I can send it to Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib for a ruling on Obaidullah Azmi by name.

nazim.haqqani.meeting.pope.and.a.certain.person's.comments.just.saying.

Once, again. Anyway don't worry yourself too much about the requested inquiry.

 

i hope you weren't being sarcastic there.

it's not a case of "i won't".

it's a case of "i can't" because i don't have the kind of Shar3i evidences that a mufti would require for his tahqeeq on the matter. i don't think linking up youtube videos, or presenting a clip from a hindu owned newspaper, is a Shar3i evidence for a Qadi to issue a SPECIFIC ruling BY NAME. those who have such evidences can do their part.

 

we were both posting at the same time. i missed this part of your post #259 (or you edited it later)

1. Nizamuddin sab's fatwa isn't obsolete for me yet. i want an independent third party (not Bareilly, not Mubarakpur) verification or rejection of it. (i chose that third party to be a NON-DESI since i don't want any allegations of being aligned to this side or that side from any forum members)

of course, that is as far as i am concerned only. i am only speaking for myself. i am not interested in it for Azhari Miyan's group's sake. i am not interested in it for Ashrafia group's sake. i am most certainly not interested in it for obaidullah's sake.

i am ONLY interested in it for the sake of knowing more about the issue of iman, kufr and takfeer in Islam.

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2. again, i have said it time and again, that i eagerly await a specific by name fatwa on obaidullah from Azhari Miyan's side OR a refutation of Nizamuddin sahab's fatwa, so that we can compare apples to apples.

it is ludicrous asking anyone outside of india on a specific by name fatwa against obaidullah when there is no document against him by muftis from his own country! please see the matter reasonably brother.

 

Ok, so you won't be sending the inquiry through so that I can send it to Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib to get a ruling on Obaidullah Azmi by name who also claim a strong presence in India. No worries. Maybe someone else can gather this together and post it here so that I can send it through.

 

i have no issues with sending an enquiry on obaidullah by name to pakistan or anywhere else. just that i don't have all the Shar3i evidences against obaidullah to present to them. i can send an enquiry to them asking them to attest or reject Nizamuddin sahab's fatwa and that drafted enquiry is in post #258

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speaking of by name, i have said time and time again on this forum that i WISH Azhari Miyan's side issues a fatwa on obaidullah by name OR a refutation of Nizamuddin sahab's fatwa so that at least us common people can compare apples to apples.

 

So I guess you won't be sending the inquiry through for me to send to Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib to get ruling on Obaidullah Azmi by name even though the organisation claims a strong presence in India. No worries. Maybe someone else will draft out the inquiry and I will send it through to Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib to get a ruling on Obaidullah Azmi by name. In sha' Allah Ta'ala.

Also please read this again.

 

what are you talking about?

see post #258. i drafted the enquiry for you in Urdu

what i mean is that i have enquired from an Arab shaykh for verifying if Nizamuddin sab's fatwa based on the given istifta is correct or not.

i didn't mention obaid or Nizamuddin sab by name because it's irrelevant to the shaykh. i just mentioned the istifta and the fatwa given and asked is the answer correct or not.

i didn't send the fatwa anywhere else in india or pakistan because i don't want people to come back with nonsensical accusations of aligning with this side or that side of the Bareilly-Mubarakpur politics.

besides, what good will a fatwa from DI or SDI serve to Azhari Miyan's side since they don't consider them as adherents of Maslake Ala Hazrat???

 

So I guess you won't be sending the inquiry through for me to send to Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib to get ruling on Obaidullah Azmi by name even though the organisation claims a strong presence in India. No worries. Maybe someone else will draft out the inquiry and I will send it through to Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib to get a ruling on Obaidullah Azmi by name. In sha' Allah Ta'ala.

 

the facts:

brother, it's not as simple as it sounds, specially if you send istifta outside of india.

first thing - a mufti anywhere in the world, when presented with something mentioning some specific person by name, will ascertain the facts

according to the Shari3ah -

what is the legal standing of a video uploaded on youtube?
or an mp3 file stored in some file-sharing location?
what is the Shar3i status of a news clip reported by the kafir media?
or for that matter even mainstream "Muslim" media (jazeera, jung group, etc etc)?
are these admissible evidences in the Shari3ah for or against a specific person?
what is admissible to a Muslim Qadi to consider something as fact?

it's very easy for us as awam to comment on videos or audios posted online, but any mufti worth his salt will think like a Qadi (given the circumstances in the Muslim world, the absence of a caliph and a proper authority) and will look for convincing evidences that can be accepted in an Islamic court.

i had sent a GENERAL istifta to pakistan describing tahir's actions, and still was faced with disappointment.

i don't think any worthwhile mufti in the Arab world or Pakistan or Turkey or anywhere else will comment on obaid by name, specially since they don't have all the Shari3ah-qualified evidences they need on him, or know much about him. you probably will get answers if you describe general situations.

the muftis of india of course are in a position to issue a fatwa on him by name.

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now present:

in any case, the fatwa by Nizamuddin sab (and the istifta) is enough since it includes very basic iman and kufr issues.

i don't see any reason to add further topics (the issues of photo-ops with women etc for political maneuvering are not issues of iman and kufr)

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it is first the job of muftis of india to do their due diligence on obaid as a person and comprehensively analyse his speeches etc., and issue a final ruling - honestly, and unbiasedly, without any political or groupie point scoring motivations.

it's something both sides (Bareilly & Mubarakpur) need to take up, along with other Sunni scholars in india.

the fatwa can then be verified from elsewhere like Arab or Pakistani muftis.

it's absurd to expect some mufti somewhere in Pakistan or Syria to issue a fatwa on obaidullah when muftis in his own country haven't issued a fatwa on him!

 

AQ, maybe you did not read this part.

(Meaning I agree with what Unbeknown wrote in #255.

So, Ignore Nizamuddin Sahib and his fatwa from now on. Many of us here are in agreement that his fatwa is now obsolete.

Will you be able to put forward a formal inquiry here so that I can get a ruling from Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib on Obaidullah Azmi by name? Yes or No?

 

brother, there is nothing to put forward in the enquiry other than asking if the fatwa given based on the istifta is correct or not. if not, what is the correct ruling upon the mustafti and the correct ruling upon the mufti (for absolving someone of kufr)?

i have typed it out in Urdu and my Urdu typing and formal composition is not the best in the market. any other brothers are welcome to modify it and make it more formal/academic and tweak it and then you can send it to anywhere you want.

کیا فرماتے ہیں علماےؑ کرام اس مسؑلہ میں کے درج ذیل استفتا اور فتوی صحیح ہیں یا نہیں؟

کیا مستفتی کا پیشکردہ عذر اس کی عدم تکفیر کا سبب بن سکتا ہے یا نہین؟

کیا فتوے میں مفتی صاحب کی پیشکردہ دلیل صحیح ہے یا نہیں؟

اگر فتوی غلط ہے تو مستفتی پر صحیح شرعی حکم کیا ہوگا؟

اور غلط فتوی دینے والے مفتی صاحب پر شرعی حکم کیا ہوگا؟

بینوا توجروا

ATTACH NIZAMUDDIN SAB FATWA ALONG WITH OBAID ISTIFTA

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Yes brother I agree with you.* As AQ said previously,

. So what's better than asking your own murshid and his organisation for a ruling?

AQ, please (this is a request), or if anyone else can put forward the inquiry for a ruling on Obaidullah Azmi by name, send through your question here and I will send it through to Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib** for a ruling. A brother is prepared to put his name on the request for a ruling and publish it.

I will also try to send the question to Hashmi Mian Sahib to get a ruling from him on Obaidullah Azmi by name.

* That we seek a new ruling based on the facts that are now present.
** AQ's murshid and his murshid's organisation

 

Yes brother I agree with you. As AQ said previously,

. So what's better than asking your own murshid and his organisation for a ruling?

AQ, please (this is a request), or if anyone else can put forward the inquiry for a ruling on Obaidullah Azmi by name, send through your question here and I will send it through to Dawat e Islami and Ilyas Qadiri Sahib for a ruling. A brother is prepared to put his name on the request for a ruling and publish it.

 

to brothers AQ, chisti-raza, Aqib alQadri: Sending the old fatwa and seeking a ruling on it is utterly pointless and will achieve exactly nothing.

Whether you send the istifta to bareily, baghdad or karachi you cannot turn a blind eye to the latest developments. It's no use going back to the Jurassic age!

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The istifta should include of the following things at the very least:

1. UKA's speech at gandhidham, if the speech is more than 9mins then it will be better if someone can get the entire speech. I don't know if it would be a good idea to order the katha#734 from here.

2. UKA's speech uploaded by the person from malegaon.

3. UKA's 22nd March Urs Speech at Ashrafiya

4. If people really want this, the ashrafiya and bareily-shareef fatwas.

5. Point out that one day after the asharfaiya fatwa was issued the mustafti claimed that he had sent the entire speech to the muftis and the muftis did not deny this, neither then nor as yet.

6. It has now emerged that the istifta sent to/written at ashrafiya contained a lie - that the speech was given in 2003 in the aftermath of the godhra riots. The fact is that the speech was given in the vestiges of 2013, perhaps to gain hindu votes in other places, or perhaps to woo Sharad Pawar (the tyrant who has always been an enemy of the muslims and was responsible for the murder of several muslims during the riots of the 70's) whose NCP party he joined in july 2014. See him with pawar here.

7. What is the wisdom behind the principle stated in jami al-aHkam. How does it explain Sayyiduna Ibarhim's ('alayhis salaam) actions and how can it be used and abused. Please explain it with examples.

8. UKA's campaigning with non-mehrams, posing for photo-ops with them and shamelessly bragging about it.

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unless the new istifta contains all of the above details it will remain incomplete and alienated from ground realities and therefore any fatwa issued on it's based will be inconsequential and pointless.

Allah ta'ala know best.

 

brother, why should the question specifically be by me.

besides, DI and Ilyas Qadri sahab are urdu speakers. they can easily be forwarded Nizamuddin sahab's fatwa and asked is it correct or not; that is -

based on what the mustafti said in the istifta and the reasons and excuses cited, is the fatwa given by the mufti based on the daleels he gave - correct or not? if it is not correct, what is the ruling on the mustafti; and what is the ruling on the mufti issuing the fatwa?

it's that simple.