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Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by Unbeknown, Feb 13, 2016.
And they must also apologize to the Muslim world for misleading them.
no problem, you can post there too. at least i finally got some chance to compose my thoughts and posts.
if the mods wish they can transfer all those posts to this thread too (in one sequential string please, so that context is not lost)
for sure, i would have missed a few bits and pieces of what i had in mind, but really, i'm beyond proof-reading and mental exertion right now
@AbdalQadir In your analysis of mufti nizam's fatwa you have brought up some good points but also left some. I will wait and see if aH points them out otherwise I will. I also wish to respond to the politics and the fatwa alteration part.
i have posted this here to keep that thread clean.
That's why it is necessary for Ashrafiya to be cornered and forced to provide fatwa on specific statements (backed by audio & video) uttered by Obaidullah. If they still can't come clear, then they stand indicted (they can't be excused any further of being unaware of his speech contents). This is the only way to plug all escape routes. If they indict Obaidullah of kufr then all is well and good.
Unless this is done, we will see recriminations going back and forth and more bad blood for years to come.
What are the chances its not, when the Muftis stayed silent and never objected? Neither before not after.
That is just common perennialist talk of hindus that they repeat adhominem on tv [ DOORDARSHAN, ZEE, STAR, ETC ]. The hindu religion is a religion founded on perennialism. Which is a practical contradiction, because historically, hinduism violently destroyed budhism, and suppressed jainism to such an extent that jains started considering themselves as hindus. Then came the shudhi movement of the Muslims and the arya samaj deception and then the mass Quran burning in india.
sikhs are still considered hindus, and even the budhists you can find in Japan and China
The politicians in india want the Muslims, like always, to repeat the perennialist deception of hinduism.
Just to clarify - where and when was this speech? Was it recently at Urs e Hafiz e Millat?
"mazhab hamesha ek raha hai, ek rahega"
that is millions of kuffriyaat in a single sentence.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بَعْدَ إِيمَانِهِمْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُوا كُفْرًا لَّن تُقْبَلَ تَوْبَتُهُمْ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الضَّالُّونَ
[A/I`mran 3:90] Indeed those who disbelieve after having accepted faith, and advance further in their disbelief - their repentance will never be accepted; and it is they who are the astray.
UKA is only advancing in his kufr.
if this second speech of obaidullah khan is true, and if he indeed sent the cassette to mubarakpur's muftis and they indeed listened to it and then gave that fatwa, then tawbah should be demanded of these muftis too - for they have committed a heinous crime.
all his explanations about his attendance at ram-katha is a stretch and a patent lie. if this is not refuted and forcefully refuted, then certainly ashrafiyah will become worse than nadwah; at least they advocate unity of those who say: "la ilaaha illa Allah". here is this obaid who wants you to unite with followers of ram and krishan under the aegis of ashrafiyah!
inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un.
Allah ta'ala knows best.
"I have watered Ahsrafiya not with my sweat but with my blood" - Hafidh-e-Millat ('alayhirrahmah)
And here is a man standing on the podium and barking the praises of Ram, Krishna and gaurav, pandav - non-existent mythological beings worshipped by hindus - into the microphone.
Twisting the meaning of jihad. Inside the premises, a stone's throw away from the mazar-shareef.
All the 'ulema' are listening calmly. This is murder of truth in cold-blood. Who will wake them up from this reverie?
so they all have heard and he has even repeated most of it on the stage.
He did not quote the excuse of indicting them at all here. He said where else could he find content on Ram and when he had to speak about him, if not in the books of hindus. just as we expect a non-muslim speaker to quote from our books on islam and not those of the Orientalist.
So he has admitted he did not want to offend their sensibilities but rather please them, brown nose in other words.
The issue of t'areef and ta'zeem. See the quotes below. He says Islam teaches manners and so we should always address people with respect.
Anyone still splitting hair over ta'zeem and ta'reef is like the drowning man holding on to twigs.
67 to 68: KafiroN ki madat na karon, beemar ho jaae to dekhne na jaao.
Qaun se fuqaha hai tumhare?
Huzoor (sallallahu'alayhi wasallam) par ke budhiya kuda pheka karti thi. Ek din nahi pheka to poocha kya hua "subhanAllah subHanAllah" to kaha beemar hai. To kaha chalo madat karenge
68:35 - Ubaidullah ne unke devtaon ki tareef ki.
Kya tareef ki bhai? Unke aqeede ki tareef ki? Unke nazriyaat ki tareef ki?
Jo BAHADUR AADMI HAI BAHAADUR NAHI KAHENGE?
Ramji kyuN kaha, gandhiji kyuN kaha
Inke fatwe ki mutabik ab kisi gaer muslim ka aadar mat karna
ye kahenge Islam to bat-tahzeebi sikhata hai. Toh Islam to battahzeebi nahi sikhaega bhai. Islam to tahzeeb sikhata hai. Islam ne to tahzeeb ki dawat di hai. Islam ne to gaer muslimoN ki madat ki hai
Allah ke rasool (sallallahu'alayhi wasallam) ne 500 dinar Hazrate Abu Sufyan, jo iman nahi laae the,ko
madina se bheje kyuNki us waqt makkah me kehet pada tha aur Allah ke bande halak ho rahe the, makkah ke kafir
bhooke mar rahe the (what are the details here?)
Allah ke rasul (sallallahu'alayhi wasallam) khade hue, sahaba ne farmaya ye yahudi ka janaza hai Allah ke rasul (sallallahu'alayhi wasallam) ne farmaya, insan ka to hai (see: http://tanwir.org/?p=546)
aap kis tarah ke islam ki ta'leem dena chahte haiN?
71:32 - threats of physical violence to his opponents?
60:45 - Kuchh saadhu is mulk me rawaNdaari ke eitibar se - Hindu-Muslim SADBHAVNA ke eitibar se achchhe hote hai.
Unhi Achche logon me ek naam hai Murari Bapu.
61:24 - Agar aese log mulk me maujood ho aur unke saath hindu-muslim rawaNdari ko Qaaim karne ke liye koi JOINT MEETING KI JAAE - to ye musalmano ke Haq me hai ke nahi?
61:48 - Morari bapu RAM-KATHA kar rahe haiN aur UNHO NE har mazhab ke logon ko bulaya hai........Agar aap unke Ram-Katha manch par thodi der ke liye boliyega to musalmano ke liye badi siyasi madat ho jaaegi.
62:00 - Aur gaya bhi to bola kya? Agar koi angrez intellectual hamre yahan aae to AngrezoN ne jo Islam ke khilaf baateN likhi hai uske hawale se bolega ya jo Islami muarrikheen ne tareekh likhi hai uske hawale se bolega?
62:45 - Mai jab satge pe gaya aur RAM ke hawale se bolna tha mujhe, mai kiski tarikh ke hawale se bolta? Mujhe jo maujooda malumati tareekh mili hai useeke hawale se bolta.
Woh tareekh kya kehti hai?:
ram bahadur THE
ram samaji nyay ke --- THE
ram ne zulm ke khilaaf JIDD-o-JAHAD kiya, JIHAD kiya
atankwadi tha rawan, us atankwadi ke khilaf ram ne JIHAD kiya
63:25 - Is lafze jihad ko usi stage par sabit karta huN. Ke har daur me buraai ke khilaaf apne apne dhang se jiddo-jahad huwa hai.
Isliye Islam ke jihad ko --- na kiya jaae.
65:33 - Phir uske baad-
Ram naam hai Mohabbat Ka
Ram naam hai takat ka
Ram naam hai insaf ka
Ram ke naam ko manne wale, nafrat ki agar siyasat karenge ...to ram ke PAYGAAM se KHULI HUi ADAWAT HOGI
65:56 - sab kuchch TAFSEEL se bola huN. Aur bhai logon ne kya kiya? jitni baat apne matlab ki thi - UNKO TO MUJHE KAFIR BANANA THA - MUSALMAN BANANE KI TAUFEEQ TO HUI NAHI INKO PUREE DUNYA ME KISIKO.
islam ke daai to kaafiron ko musalmaan banate haiN, ye kaise daai haiN jo musalmaano ko kafir banate haiN?
Meko bana diya kafir aur ahsrafiya ke ulamae haqq ne apna fatwa jaari kar diya ke mai kafir nahi alhamdulillah. TOH FIR KAAFIR BANANE WALA MUFTI KYA HOGA?
AlHamdulillah mai galti se bach gaya.
Nabi-e-kareem (sallallahu'alayhi wasallam) ne kis tarah taswwure jihad diya tha? Huzoor (sallallahu'alayhi wasallam) ke tasawwure jihad se dunya ki har qaum ne bil wasta ya bila wasta fayada uthaya hai.
Gaurav-Pandav ki jang, usme Krishna ne apne nukta e nazar se jihad kiya tha
Mai use islami jiahd nahi kah raha huN (the voice is not clear, I guess this is what he said)
magar bhai logon ne kya kiya?
Ram ko paak kar diya - Ram bhi paak aur Quran bhi paak? ye kehke gumrah kiya jata hai.
Mai kahta huN - Allah bhi paak, Allah ke rasool bhi paak
Alhamdulillah - maine us raat me Islam ke nazariyae jihad ki hujjat qaim karte hue, Allah ke rasul (sallallahu'alayhi wasallam) ne jo insano ki khidmat ka dars hame diay hai use bhi bayan kiya
51:20 - It is the responsibility of Ulema-e-Islam to clarify the TRUE concept of jihad to people
51:58 - You need to do TABLIGH to those people who are not muslim and have not recited the shahada
52:33 - TABLIGH of Islam will be done where false gods are being worshipped
54:30 - in the current state of the country - is there not a need to present the correct picture of Islam?
Should such an opportunity not be sought where we can speak OUR TRUTH on the platform of the kuffar?
54:47 - I will explain the background behind this wrong fatwa
55:35 - I will be indebted to those muftis who pin point my errors
55:47 - He names mufti nizamuddin and Allamah muhammad Ahmad misbahi sahab
56:28 - I told them that I am sending the cassete based on which the fatwa of kufr has been given. Listen to it in full, transcribe it, get each and every word written, if there is even a minutest denigration of the shariah, I will not repent behind closed doors but in front of lakhs of public and scholars Ubaidullah Khan Azmi will repent.
57:30 - I am grateful to Allah 'azzawajal that the ulema of asharfiya have PROVED that my speech was harmless and error-free.
57:47 - Alahzrat was CHEATED, a wrong ref was attributed to fatawa ridawiyyah
58:04 - These are 'Iman ke Chor' 'Robbers of Faith'
58:31 - The riots that took place in Gujrat was a result of the MISCONCEPTION OF JIHAD!!
59:39 - People tell "He sits with Hema Malini", "He sits with Jaya Prada", I said, "These are the people who sit there. Whom should I sit with?"
"It is because of sitting with these people that we got the holiday for eid-milad"
"Had I not sat with them we would not have got that Holiday till this day"
24:00 - mulk ki azadi ke liye jihad hua tha
27:00 - chandrashekhar, gandhi, subhashchandra bose did jihad
29:00 - ISI jihad ki ta'leem madarisoN me di jaati hai
36:00 - he makes a snide remark at his opponents that they have taken "wa antum sukara" ayah out of context and got drunk!
36:41 - an ayah is translated wrongly - and someone is shouting subHanAllah!
37:00 - those who have accused him are "be Iman". Doing Zulm-o-Sitam on Quran and hadith.
both nizamuddin sahib and misbahi sahib were on the stage.
I have no more husn zann left. I am not even obliged to maintain husn zann now. If something has gone wrong it is beyond the plausible.
Maulana meraj-ul-qadiri and maulana nazim sahib (both from ashrafiya) are among the signatories of the bareilly-shareef fatwa. They did not submit to bullying though they are surrounded by ukhan's supporters. I salute their courage and pray that Allah ta'ala protect them from ubaid's fitnah.
Obaidullahs speech, will put things into perspective.
MOD (aH) EDIT: THIS is a new one. not the old 'ram-katha' speech, which can be found here:
(i edited this post because i had ignored it as, the old ram-katha speech, but after unbeknown's post above, i realised that he is referring to this new one.)
What a blunt solution! Will it help bridge building or bridge burning? Ego clash will only shred sunni unity.
I think the best thing to do is to present all and new facts/evidences (videos & audios) which contain Obaidullah's kufriyat to Mufti Nizamuddin. Ask him (and other Ashrafi) scholars to provide definitive ruling on Obaidullah.
(i) If they deem Obaidullah to have committed kufr (in the light of all facts) and ostracize him, then they deserve credit for upholding the law. That will also absolve them of their previous oversight and mistake (may be inadvertent, if they were misled by istiftaa)
(ii) If they dally or excuse themselves from providing fatwa based on new evidence, then the game is clear
(iii) If they again absolve Obaidullah, then they have dug a hole for themselves and have nowhere to hide
Now the million rupee question is - who will bell the cat?