Ruling on Mortgages in UK?

Discussion in 'Other Mad'habs' started by Alf, Dec 14, 2021.

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  1. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    I pointed this out to Mufti Akmal, and he actually posted a video stating that interest from banks would not be riba only if it has no muslim shareholders. DI muftis hold the same view. However, Tajus shariah had a different view, and one mufti who is his khalifa, told me it would be permissible to take interest from non muslim banks even if the bank is listed in the stock exchange, with possible muslim shareholders.
  2. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    Simply calling a a non Muslim country "Dar al-Harb" is lacking. What is the definition(not our opinion of it) of "Dar al-Harb"?
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  3. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    Ask any parent on here whether they would consider moving house in general if they have kids. Most will come back with a resounding no. For you it might not be undue hardship but for someone else it might be-mentally or financially. Renting out a new place means you have to get references, new deposits etc

    People move all the time yes. I have moved a few times in my life, doesn’t mean it has not been stressful or hard.

    The specific cases I have mentioned cannot be generalised, but I can tell you that the majority of people who live in rent in the UK would rather own their own house instead of living in rent. Increasing rent is a real thing. How often are you going to move? Rulings are surely based on the general situations of people.

    I’d agree that we should leave the haajah to the individual.
  4. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    I would also point out that both points were missing from the dawat e islami answer- is this because the mufti didn't consider them relevant i.e. difference of opinion on these two points that I have raised?
  5. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    But who amongst the first time Muslim house buyers have actually experienced any of the points you mentioned in order for them to think
    'hmmm, maybe there is haajah here'- I doubt it's very many and the vast majority are buying with no consideration to the halal or haram.

    I take your points- perhaps there really is haajah in renting in the UK but in the same way that my experience cannot speak for everyone, neither can the experience of those you mention also speak for everyone. Surely it should be tried before discounting it based on scare stories from others.

    Whilst I can take on board some of your points, I don't consider the pressure of moving home in a school year to be some undue hardship, sorry. People do it all the time and I'm not sure why that would be an issue IF you're not moving schools also. People do that even when buying houses- moving during the school year.

    In any case, I leave the haajah to the individual and their own taqwa.

    As for the second point re not borrowing from a company where even a share is owned by a Muslim, I would like some input as to whether I've understood this correctly and the implications for Muslim house purchases in the West- huge number of lenders would automatically be out of the equation, haajah or not.
  6. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    of course you can talk about it but direct experience is something else. That’s like people who are unmarried giving marital courses and advice about marriage. Yes, you can do it, but you’ll never fully understand the nuances if you’ve not actually lived it.

    I’m not sure you completely understand the stress involved into trying to get into social housing (as you yourself pointed out that it takes time) when you have kids and you don’t have a house to live in. I know people in social housing that live in extremely poor conditions, where the LA don’t even care to fix things in the house. Someone recently told me they have had a hole in their kitchen ceiling for weeks and water from the bathroom of the upstairs resident keeps trickling into his kitchen.

    When you live in rented accommodation, there is no guarantee that you’ll manage to get a house close to the school your kids go to. Say you don’t change schools, the added stress of travelling to school is a lot. Please bear in mind that not all people have the luxury of having plenty of rented accommodation where their kids’ school is like you do. Have you considered the pressure of actually moving in the middle of a school year?

    Have you considered something called stability for yourself and especially your kids?

    Moving houses is not a walk in the park like you make it out to be. If you rent with a company, very often these people are vicious when it comes to doing an exit check and do everything they can to get your whole deposit.

    It’s totally understandable that if people have been threatened to be kicked out or have been kicked out that they fear it. It really affects your mental health to live in such a condiction. It’s not irrational. It’s human.

    Alhamdulillah you had a good experience in rented accommodation where you can live in affordable rent and have a good landlord and may it continue for you, but to generalise this good experience is shortsighted.
  7. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Yes- I have lived in social housing (grew up in it), live in rental accommodation and have done for several years. In any case, even if I had never lived in rented accommodation, I can still talk about it- otherwise are only women fit to talk about feminism? Knowledge can be accrued through other than direct experience.

    People manage to get onto social housing- how hard do you think it is? It can take time, sure- but you still get there eventually. I haven't come across anyone who has tried and failed completely- do you?

    Why would you have to move school if you were kicked out by a landlord? I don't live in the countryside- there are numerous houses available for rent near any given school when you live in a fair sized town or city.

    Why would the fear of being kicked out cause haajah? Or if it has happened once, is that sufficient for it be haajah? How rational is the fear?

    Your points may apply to SOME people- but not all. Most of the people I know buy a house without trying to rent first or without trying to get onto social housing.

    What about the people who actually are already in social housing and try to purchase a property under a right to buy scheme? What's their excuse exactly? The fact is, the vast majority of Muslims being a house today never even stop to consider whether it is halal or haram in the first place. The entire rental market where I live is driven by Muslims who own multiple properties- what's their excuse?
  8. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    1. Have you lived your whole life in rent? If you haven’t then you cannot tell people to do so because you don’t understand the hardships involved with it. Not everybody is able to live for decades in rent without issues. Rents usually go up; something you can afford can quickly become something unaffordable. Landlords often don’t like to fix things in the house. If you’re renting from a company then they visit your house every three-four months to check the house and take pictures of all the rooms in the house.

    2. Do you have children? Have you ever had to look for a new house and school and then move house in the middle of the school year because your landlord has kicked you out?

    3. Have you lived in social housing? Do you know the process for getting social housing? Do you know the living conditions of social housing? Have you ever listened to people who actually have to live in social housing?
  9. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    With respect to this link:

    1. How is owning a first home actually dharura or haajah according to the definitions provided? Anyone can live in rented accommodation fairly easily in the UK, it's just that people don't like paying rent without accruing equity in the property. Wouldn't this fatwa IN PRACTICE actually entail that very few people are allowed to purchase houses? People can rent for decades without issues and even if you have a problem with one landlord, you just find another/ get onto social housing.

    2. It states that taking a loan from any company where even one Muslim has a share will be prohibited. If this is the case, then a huge number of lenders cannot be used as they are publicly traded and will 100% have at least one Muslim shareholder i.e. HSBC, Barclays and the like.

    The above two points make it seem like, although the mufti of dawat e Islami gave permission, that such permission to be taken on face value will not be valid i.e. now the layman has to find a lender who has no Muslim shareholders at all and also has to have haajah at minimum (quite frankly, I've never really seen people buying due to haajah, just buying because they don't want to pay rent with no accrual of equity).
  10. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    I recently learned that owning a second property on mortgage is now halal in non-Muslim countries according to some Sunni scholars and that it was passed just a few years ago. Can anyone shed light on this?
  11. sunniislam

    sunniislam New Member

    Assalamu 'alaykum.

    I hope i can get Shaykh Abu Hasan view and opinion.

    I just want to know, why is there a difference in the scholars of Deoband and most sunni scholars about buying mortgage house in UK/Western countries.
    Many sunni scholars deem it permissble today, and many hanafi scholars of deoband deem it haram, why this difference when they both follow hanafi madhab.

    Secondly, how many sunni scholars still deem it impermissble today.

    Thirdly, is the ruling same for a normal muslim and scholar/muslim who is working for din in dar al-harb to make hijrah if its becoming difficult to act on sharia, meaning faraidh/wajib.
  12. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    The mortgage isn't riba though.
    Riba can never be jaiz.
    The reason it's haram is because of the fact the kuffaar get naf'a even though the Muslim benefits in the long run.
  13. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    The mufti clearly says that only one house is allowed on mortgage. If the mortgage is for investment purpose, then it is not allowed. What he also says is that it is valid to sub-let the mortgaged house in part or full to earn rent (in order to pay the mortgage).

    If you buy a house on mortgage with intention to live there, but have to rent it out later for one reason or the other, then that mortgage will be considered permissible. Initial intention is what counts
  14. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

  15. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Let me watch the full clip and revert to you.
  16. 786-12

    786-12 New Member

    i don't know if you watched the clip but at 2mins 32sec the mufti says something about renting the house and mentions asl e maqsood remains...this was what i was unsure about as it was in urdu i didn't fully understand what he mentioned about renting the house to pay off mortgage payments
  17. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    If "Mufti of Dawat-e-Islami says that in non-Muslim lands it is allowed to have a mortgage for one house to live in", then obviously buy-to-let mortgage will NOT be considered permissible.
  18. 786-12

    786-12 New Member

    don't fully understand the urdu so wanted to ask if it is ok to have a buy to let mortgage based on what is mentioned in the clip by Mufti of Dawat-e-Islami
  19. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

  20. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    I am not too sure what the stance of Imam Abu Hanifa RA and Imam Muhammad RA is on this matter, perhaps if someone could find out what is written in the books of Fiqh.

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