Ruling on Mortgages in UK?

Discussion in 'Other Mad'habs' started by AbdalQadir, Jul 24, 2023.

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  1. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    Well the reason for this is that you didn’t address the initial premise of the discussion and kept ignoring the points I raised and instead mentioned other unrelated points.

    Hospital protocol is always changing based on “evidenced-based medicine” and always being “improved upon” based on the latest research. Perhaps today the protocol is that alcohol is the go-to for disinfecting. Perhaps in a few years they will decide that something else is better. This is not necessarily permanent and is subject to potential change with new research.

    My mentioning olive oil was regarding personal use as opposed to using alcohol based wipes/ hand sanitizers. This much can definitely be done.

    With regards to the hospital setting, that can be discussed in detail with a Mufti by one explaining for example that:
    “At my current job as a health care professional I have to engage in protocol that requires use of alcohol based products for disinfection. Is there leeway in this?” Etc

    But this was not the initial discussion.

    The initial discussion was regarding the Sharii prohibition/permissibility of consuming and or touching liquid substances that have the potential to intoxicate. You decided that they are permissible for use as disinfectants in opposition to the Mufta bihi qawl which you dismissed.

    The point is if you want to take that route then you have to accept all fatawa that follow from that alternative position.

    Mufti Zahid genuinely and correctly laid out the ruling as per the mufta bihi position and this can’t be dismissed just because of your own personal circumstances that involves following man-made hospital protocols.

    That’s a different discussion altogether.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2023
  2. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    1. You clearly don’t work in a hospital and don’t understand how to implement infection control practically. Ask any doctor here about whether they’d even consider using olive oil for procedures or in and around the hospital.

    2. I’m not trolling. If you think I am then you clearly don’t understand what khamr is. And if you think that fatwa is perfect then I suggest you read this.
  3. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    prove with evidence that “nothing disinfects better than alcohol”

    And or prove that alcohol is a better antiseptic than olive oil.

    There are many studies mentioning the limitations of alcohol-based disinfectants

    “These hand sanitizers are mainly composed of ethanol, isopropanol, and hydrogen peroxide in different combinations. Misuse of these preparations may be toxic to human health and the environment. When these chemicals are released by evaporation, they have known toxicity and harmful effects on the environment. In addition, the chance of frequent use of the hand sanitizer has increased the trend of antimicrobial resistance”

    “Ethanol toxicity is also related to respiratory depression, leading to respiratory arrest hypothermia, arrhythmia and possibly cardiac arrest, hypoglycemia, ketoacidosis, and hypotension (Gormley et al., 2012). An ethanol level of 300 mg/dl in the serum may cause an increased risk of respiratory depression and arrest, while an ethanol level of ≥ 500 mg/dl may cause cardiac arrest and death. (Tõnisson et al., 2013)). Ethanol exposure may be related to acute liver damage, myoglobinuria, hypokalemia, hypomagnesemia, hypocalcemia, hypophosphatemia(Wilson et al., 2015) and hydrodiuresis (Bouthoorn et al., 2011). At the end of the debate, frequent and prolonged use of ethanol-based hand sanitizer may be harmful to health. If someone uses ethanol-based hand rubs countless times a day for several months, skin absorption can cause poisoning as a result of COVID-19 preventive measures.”

    Alternatively, the benefits of olive oil are increasingly being realized: to the results of,up its process is recommended.

    “According to the results of many studies, it seems that olive is a natural and safe substance that contains antioxidants, anti-inflammatory, antibacterial, and antiviral properties, and its use in wound healing or speeding up its process is recommended.“

    are you not able to logically process the discussion presented and respond accordingly?
    or are you just trolling?
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2023
  4. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    Of course not. I just wanted to milk all the benefits of dar al harb as much as I can, since I live in it.
  5. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    if khamr is used in anything, it makes everything najis but not every alcohol is najis.

    Other than ethanol and methanol no other alcohol is edible whether it is an intoxicant or not.

    Lol. Bro. Nothing disinfects better than alcohol. Did you try think of infection control practically, in a hospital setting? Think fresh open wounds.
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    are you serious? c'mon bro. i don't mean to make an ageist comment but i'm pretty sure you're beyond tweens.

    there's no cherry picking. every thing has its own rules in Islam.

    financial transactions have their own rules. in Hanafi mazhab, it is an established hadith and axiom that there's no riba between a Muslim and a harbi in dar al-harb

    sexual relations have their own rules. it is only allowed in the bonds of marriage between man and woman (might i add cisgender, considering our times); or for a Muslim man to be had with a slave girl which is described in the Quran as 'what your right hand possesses', who is essentially a ghaneemah of war! this is the only way sex is allowed - in all four mazhabs of Ahlus Sunnah. in both cases, marriage or concubinage - it is firstly only permitted with a Muslim or christian or jewish woman. not permitted with mushrik women. secondly, your everyday jane doe in today's england or usa or germany, even if she is a christian or a jew and consents for a few hours, ain't ghaneemah that you possess as her lord and master - in light of any mazhab. plain and simple.

    it could be that some people, whether in india or elsewhere, thought along the same lines as you and extrapolated the financial permission to this and suggested that perhaps Hanafi mazhab permitted sleeping with a harbi kafir female - it was brought to Ala Hazrat's attention and Ala Hazrat staunchly refuted this nonsense idea wherever it came from! there is no such permission in Hanafi or any mazhab! ghanayim are the in-duniya rewards from Allah stipulated by nass of Quran, and they are earned by Muslim warriors! that later on they can be sold and bought, is another matter. today's jane doe fits nowhere in this equation! your best bet is to just aim for polygamy bro!
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  7. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    my point is that you falsely assumed that these “intricate” matters are not researched properly by the Ulema/Muftiyan. And when pressed regarding your own stance and position based on the actual science, you yourself faltered by making claims that are debunked by science. And i shared a scientific article in this regard.
  8. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    once again, whether the purpose of its synthesis is intended for consumption or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that it is consumed (for the purpose of lahw as well as accidentally) and is consumable and does lead to intoxication.

    according to the muftah bihi qawl. A liquid substance that intoxicates is considered haram to drink as well as impure to touch such that it if it comes on your body and or clothes in a certain amount (designated by shariah ie dirham size etc), your taharah is affected.

    the above is true assuming you are following the mufta bihi qawl.

    And the rest of your questions can be answered based on extrapolation of the above points.

    Same ruling would apply for benzodiazepines in liquid form if it fulfills the conditions.

    Olive oil is considered one of the best antiseptics
    You can read more on that in your spare time.

    With regards to a blood test. It’s not necessary to have your skin wiped down with an alcohol wipe prior to having your blood drawn. Simply just decline it. You’re not being forced.

    if you really think so. Ok. That’s your opinion. If I were you I would rather ask a a mufti about how they would consider such a haraj in this circumstance instead of making my own assumptions.

    At the end of the day. The point is that Mufti Sahib’s fatwa is very valid and correct in terms of principles and science as well. So to downplay the fatwa as well as his qualifications in terms of him “not doing research” is unfair and disrespectful.
    Everything that he said is backed by sharii evidence and usool as well as the adequate knowledge of the background science behind such matters.
  9. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    isopropyl is not safe to consume, it’s not drinking alcohol. It’s just a chemical that has similar properties. It’s toxic and addicts may abuse it, it’s not supposed to be drunk.

    not everything that makes you become inebriated is haram to touch. By that logic a lot of medication would not be acceptable. If your problem is inebriation will you say benzodiazepines are also haram?

    how do you expect to disinfect a wound then? If you need to have a blood test how do you clean the skin?

    Even if mufti sahib’s analogy was correct which it is not, there is a haraj in terms of infection control which would make it okay to use
  10. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    depends on how seriously you take your salah and rules of purity

    If you’re serious then yeah obviously. It logically follows from it that you should be aware of what you are applying topically and be certain that it doesn’t contain any najis substance (assuming you are following the muftah bihi Hanafi position).

    “Isopropanol has also classically been used as an ethanol substitute for the user to garner inebriation given its relative availability and low cost.“
  11. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    “Isopropanol has also classically been used as an ethanol substitute for the user to garner inebriation given its relative availability and low cost.“
  12. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    who consumes isopropyl?
  13. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    If we are calling the West dar al harb, shouldn't we be consistent. Why the cherry picking? One could argue that too is for the benefit of the muslim man
  14. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    Is the number of people consuming it for lahw relevant?

    isnt it sufficient that it is an intoxicating substance that people can and have resorted to for intoxication purposes (ie lahw) and have become intoxicated due to consuming it
  15. Tolu Miyan

    Tolu Miyan New Member

    Mufti Sahib himself uses the word consumable in his fatwa.

    In addition, Imam ibn Abideen clarifies that it is mufta bihi because of most people consume ethanol-containing beverages for lahw. How many people consume isopropyl alcohol for lahw?


    Do we also now have to investigate every liquid that is not consumable but used in topical products as it may be khamr and therefore najis, if it has the ability to intoxicate when isolated and consumed?
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2023
  16. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    “The muftah bihi qawl in the hanafi madhab is that: every liquid substance that has the capability of causing intoxication when consumed is impure and it is haram.”

    Listen from 1:45:20 and onwards
  17. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    so even though isopropyl can potentially intoxicate, it isn’t khamr only because it’s not intended for consumption

    Where did you get that from?
    Is intention a criterion for determining whether an intoxicating substance is khamr?
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2023
  18. Tolu Miyan

    Tolu Miyan New Member

    See Shakyh aH's points on the other thread about methanol poisoning.

    Isopropyl Alcohol is likewise not khamr as it is not for consumption.

    It is also not produced by the fermentation of sugars like ethanol is.
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i actually had my own situation once when i was out of work. this wasn't a q&a with a scholar but discussion with friends and family; and they gave the same reasoning.

    my reasoning was Muslim pride - how can i take welfare from the kafir government (and i was fully and genuinely eligible for it then)?! my friends and family on the other hand said - no, they take taxes from you. so when you're in this situation, you use them back. makes sense, and i changed my views. but one or two weeks later i got another job

    as per Hanafi rulings,

    on the entitled to play the system - play can mean utilize the laws or the heela's/loopholes, incentives, tax breaks etc. from their own system - that's perfectly fair and allowed

    if by play, someone means conning the system - then that is not allowed

    case in point - unemployment benefits - in most countries you're supposed to prove that you're actually looking for work and interviewing etc. so you can't fake it and just sit at home and collect their checks; or keep an ongoing job hush hush and also collect unemployment; or if you're a caregiver for kids or elderly, prove it to them; or disabled yourself - faking all such things and conning the system is not allowed

    Ala Hazrat refuted just that in Fatawa Ridawiyyah. a kafir female citizen of a kafir country is patently not a ghaneemah that has been assigned to you by the imam/ameer, and doesn't come under 'what your right hand possesses'. (sorry no references right now, but you can search on software easily)

    financial transactions are a different issue where Hanafi school stipulates that there is no riba between a Muslim and a harbi in darul harb (Muslim taking 2 dirhams from a kafir in exchange for 1 dirham)

    coming back to which

    so this fatwa is essentially a non-fatwa due to its impracticability

    which common guy like you or me will be able to get a full list of the names of all the shareholders in a publicly traded company?

    it's bad enough just trying to identify if your local take-away joint is owned by a Muslim or an ismaili or a qadiani ma 'n pa; and what is the status of the meat they serve!

    i can't speak for the uk, but in some other places, generally ismailis just don't get into the meat business (at least for Muslim customer base), and if they open up any restaurants etc. aimed for a Muslim customer base wanting halal, they just buy meat from Sunni or shia (12'er) butchers, coz both Sunnis and 12ers consider them kafir and no practicing Sunni or 12er shia considers their meat as zabiha! if they open restaurants for western customer base, that's a different story.

    qadianis in the west are insistent to call themselves Muslims, many times will show taqiyya and hide their status, and i'm pretty sure, they call their meat as halal too. don't know if they have butchers too. we can look for the halal certificate from a relied upon certifying body when we walk into a cafe or something, but really we can't ask the owner if he's qadiani every time we walk into an unknown halal-labeled restaurant etc. i'm still figuring out how they play out with the food business. perhaps you uk guys will be having more experience and exposure to them given their large numbers there.

    anyways, his (Akmal Qadri) ruling that modern western nations aren't darul harb is crazy as far as i'm concerned. i know that video and it annoyed me greatly. is he really that blind to all the wars and atrocities against Muslim nations in all these post colonial years! really, all he can see is that Muslim immigrants have mosques and can get welfare? (of course, chor ke ghar me chori nahin hoti - he doesn't know a simple maxim?)
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2023
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  20. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    why is he incorrect?
    Isopropyl can and does intoxicate

    “Isopropanol has also classically been used as an ethanol substitute for the user to garner inebriation given its relative availability and low cost.“

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