Ruling on Mortgages in UK?

i actually had my own situation once when i was out of work. this wasn't a q&a with a scholar but discussion with friends and family; and they gave the same reasoning.

my reasoning was Muslim pride - how can i take welfare from the kafir government (and i was fully and genuinely eligible for it then)?! my friends and family on the other hand said - no, they take taxes from you. so when you're in this situation, you use them back. makes sense, and i changed my views. but one or two weeks later i got another job

as per Hanafi rulings,

on the entitled to play the system - play can mean utilize the laws or the heela's/loopholes, incentives, tax breaks etc. from their own system - that's perfectly fair and allowed

if by play, someone means conning the system - then that is not allowed

case in point - unemployment benefits - in most countries you're supposed to prove that you're actually looking for work and interviewing etc. so you can't fake it and just sit at home and collect their checks; or keep an ongoing job hush hush and also collect unemployment; or if you're a caregiver for kids or elderly, prove it to them; or disabled yourself - faking all such things and conning the system is not allowed

Ala Hazrat refuted just that in Fatawa Ridawiyyah. a kafir female citizen of a kafir country is patently not a ghaneemah that has been assigned to you by the imam/ameer, and doesn't come under 'what your right hand possesses'. (sorry no references right now, but you can search on software easily)

financial transactions are a different issue where Hanafi school stipulates that there is no riba between a Muslim and a harbi in darul harb (Muslim taking 2 dirhams from a kafir in exchange for 1 dirham)

coming back to which

so this fatwa is essentially a non-fatwa due to its impracticability

which common guy like you or me will be able to get a full list of the names of all the shareholders in a publicly traded company?

it's bad enough just trying to identify if your local take-away joint is owned by a Muslim or an ismaili or a qadiani ma 'n pa; and what is the status of the meat they serve!

i can't speak for the uk, but in some other places, generally ismailis just don't get into the meat business (at least for Muslim customer base), and if they open up any restaurants etc. aimed for a Muslim customer base wanting halal, they just buy meat from Sunni or shia (12'er) butchers, coz both Sunnis and 12ers consider them kafir and no practicing Sunni or 12er shia considers their meat as zabiha! if they open restaurants for western customer base, that's a different story.

qadianis in the west are insistent to call themselves Muslims, many times will show taqiyya and hide their status, and i'm pretty sure, they call their meat as halal too. don't know if they have butchers too. we can look for the halal certificate from a relied upon certifying body when we walk into a cafe or something, but really we can't ask the owner if he's qadiani every time we walk into an unknown halal-labeled restaurant etc. i'm still figuring out how they play out with the food business. perhaps you uk guys will be having more experience and exposure to them given their large numbers there.

anyways, his (Akmal Qadri) ruling that modern western nations aren't darul harb is crazy as far as i'm concerned. i know that video and it annoyed me greatly. is he really that blind to all the wars and atrocities against Muslim nations in all these post colonial years! really, all he can see is that Muslim immigrants have mosques and can get welfare? (of course, chor ke ghar me chori nahin hoti - he doesn't know a simple maxim?)

 

why is he incorrect?
Isopropyl can and does intoxicate


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK493181/

“Isopropanol has also classically been used as an ethanol substitute for the user to garner inebriation given its relative availability and low cost.“

 

In the 90s, Shaykh ul Islam Syed Madani Miyan was also asked pertaining renting vs owning a home via mortgage. Madani Miyan also gave similar ruling as Azhari Miyan.

The person was concerned that rent was going to a kafir and renting essentially had no ROI; hence, full benefit to a kafir and none to the Muslim paying the rent. Where owning a home, you have equity in the home and there is a high chance you will sell the home at a higher price and making an overall profit (benefiting a Muslim).

Allah ta’ala knows best.

 

so in the case of Qatar who have huge stakes in Barclays Bank, it wont permissible according to Taajush shariah

 

I asked Mufti Akmal a similar question, and he actually made a video on it stating that we can only take interest from a non Muslim bank if we are certain that not a single shareholder of that bank is a Muslim. Tajus Shariah, on the other hand, says interest from banks with Muslim shareholders is still permissible for us, for in reality no bank or company makes the common shareholder a real shareholder.

What Tajus Shariah said is true, for in case of publicly traded companies, which includes banks, the common shareholder has practically no say in how the company is run: all decisions are made by the controlling shareholders; hence in reality the company is owned and run by the controlling shareholders.

 

i have often wondered the same about people who say they are in dar al harb therefore they are entitled to play the system so they get benefits even if they are absolutely capable of working.

I pay my taxes, therefore those people are also taking from my money and millions of other Muslim taxpayers.

—-
I once heard someone tell me: we are in ‘dar al harb’ so we are allowed to have intercourse with non Muslim females anytime.

 

good question. i have long wondered about it myself based on the jawabs given by our Sunni ulama. its a very realistic scenario, and for some reason not many muftis or no one perhaps, address it.

we need practical solutions from our muftis, not rote text-book answers.

coming to practical solutions - can we do qiyas on credit cards - in principle it's still a loan and owned by the bank (where not all shareholders might be kuffar), and most of us actually need it! i don't know about the uk, but in the usa, you can't get a mortgage if you don't have a decent credit history, and you can't have a decent credit history till you actually get a credit card and build some credit history. so if credit card is daroorah and jaiz, by extension, so will be the mortgage, yes or no? (question for mufti sahiban)

what about non-daroorah items / assets / equities - Muslims need to be financially strong in duniya, specially in countries where they are in minorities. look at the state of the poorer section of the indian Muslim. should we build our wealth using the kuffar and their financial institutions where we have realistic possibilities of benefitting from their institutions and systems?

if only our (bulk majority) muftis stop crying over why we don't address them as hujjatul islam ghausul waqt damat barakatuhumul 3aliya, and think about upliftment of the community, we can achieve more in deen and duniya!

 

How can we ensure that every shareholder of the bank is definitely a non Muslim harbi? What if there are shareholders which are Muslim?

 

There are investors who won't call stocks as assets for any practical intent or purpose, yet others who will defend it as an asset. Interestingly, in the west you can take out loans using stock ownership as collateral! Western finance considers both as equity as far as I know. Read up on Elon musk's using stocks as leverage to finance Twitter and other projects.

 

The question is - benefit to Muslim. Mortgage for example - yes the payment is interest based, but the eventual benefit is home ownership and asset and equity build up. In rent it's nothing. Even if you factor in unexpected death, if you were renting, your next of kin will face the same rental payments you faced. If you were on mortgage, they'd at a minimum inherit some equity. Mortgage payments stop at a point in time. Renting is for life. Do a cash flow diagram and see for yourself. So it's not as simple as paying or receiving cash, but about the overall (realistically and practically expected) benefit or ROI for the Muslim.

NB. We're not talking about speculative investing like in the stock market here. That's another discussion.

Even among riba-loving kuffar, this real estate n assets vs stocks n bonds is classic debate in modern finance. There are people (investors) who won't have it any other way than real estate calling stock market as gambling, there are others who will make sense of stocks too with many endorsing a balanced investment portfolio.

 

https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/hand-sanitisers-and-alcohol.14457/#post-68239

The alcohol thing was discussed during the COVID days on this thread.

 

Mufti Sahib incorrectly mentions isopropyl alcohol in his fatwa as being khamar

The only alcohol (organic solvents with the hydroxyl functional group - OH) that is classed as khamar is ethyl alcohol, other alcohols such as methanol, hexanol, propan-2-ol (isopropyl) do not intoxicate, rather they are extremely lethal so are not safe for consumption.

Also these alcohols have completely different chemical formulas!

In terms of ethyl alcohol being used for exterior use, it is almost always denatured to render it undrinkable and toxic (the ethanol is mixed with methanol,) the mix being called methylated spirit/denatured alcohol/alcohol denat

Also, no one can argue that vinegar is not permissible. However vinegar according to the EU's standards can contain up to 1.5% residual/unreacted ethanol.

My point is these issues are very intricate and proper research should be conducted by the ulama (with experts in the field) before issuing fatawa.

 

https://www.thesunniway.com/articles/item/321-is-it-halal-to-use-hand-sanitisers-containing-alcohol

^if this is what you are referring to, then i have read it.
and it makes absolute sense. it is logical and sufficiently proven with many evidences. i don't see why this fatwa is a reason to downplay Mufti sahib's qualification and logic...

 

@abu Hasan please can you tell us what is your take?

 

try to read the fatwa if you have the time.

please read my previous posts carefully. I said that if anyone wants to follow it they can, but I certainly won’t.

and Masha Allah, Allah has bestowed you with strong intellect and superior knowledge brother.

 

I haven't read the fatwa. But yes. The same applies here. He's a qualified mufti. And you aren't. If you disagree with the fatwa, then don't follow it. But no need to be disrespectful and dismiss it as an illegitimate fatwa based on your own weak intellect and inferior knowledge.

 

you're not paying attention. i just stated that "Riba" is not permissible.

What you mean to ask is whether Imam Abu Hanifa believed that a muslim, in addition to receiving from, can also give excess money, in the form of interest, to a harbi kafir. Now that's a question that can be discussed.

Among the Hanafis? like who?

 

Does Imam Abu Hanifa issued fatwa state that it is permissible for Muslims to PAY riba to the people of dar al harb? Or just take riba from these people?

Like Mufti Zahid’s fatwa that alcohol gels can’t be used in the middle of the covid pandemic? Interesting.

I’m not pushing this down your throat bro. There are scholars who don’t agree with your definition of dar al harb.

——
@abu Hasan really want to hear your take.

 

امين في خير و لطف و عافية

 

Yes. "RIBA" is clearly prohibited.
However, money taken from a Harbi Kafir, in the form of interest, is not considered as "RIBA."

You should ask yourself why you think you are capable of determining whether a concept such as "Dar-ul-Harb" is considered out-dated based on your inferior logic and knowledge, whereas senior Ulema, experts in fiqh with years of in-depth studying and extensive research, do not/have not consider(ed) it as such.