Ruling on Mortgages in UK?

Discussion in 'Other Mad'habs' started by AbdalQadir, Jul 24, 2023.

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  1. Qadiri Faqir

    Qadiri Faqir New Member

    In the 90s, Shaykh ul Islam Syed Madani Miyan was also asked pertaining renting vs owning a home via mortgage. Madani Miyan also gave similar ruling as Azhari Miyan.

    The person was concerned that rent was going to a kafir and renting essentially had no ROI; hence, full benefit to a kafir and none to the Muslim paying the rent. Where owning a home, you have equity in the home and there is a high chance you will sell the home at a higher price and making an overall profit (benefiting a Muslim).

    Allah ta’ala knows best.
    Abdullah Ahmed and Umar99 like this.
  2. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    so in the case of Qatar who have huge stakes in Barclays Bank, it wont permissible according to Taajush shariah
  3. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    I asked Mufti Akmal a similar question, and he actually made a video on it stating that we can only take interest from a non Muslim bank if we are certain that not a single shareholder of that bank is a Muslim. Tajus Shariah, on the other hand, says interest from banks with Muslim shareholders is still permissible for us, for in reality no bank or company makes the common shareholder a real shareholder.

    What Tajus Shariah said is true, for in case of publicly traded companies, which includes banks, the common shareholder has practically no say in how the company is run: all decisions are made by the controlling shareholders; hence in reality the company is owned and run by the controlling shareholders.
  4. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    i have often wondered the same about people who say they are in dar al harb therefore they are entitled to play the system so they get benefits even if they are absolutely capable of working.

    I pay my taxes, therefore those people are also taking from my money and millions of other Muslim taxpayers.

    I once heard someone tell me: we are in ‘dar al harb’ so we are allowed to have intercourse with non Muslim females anytime.
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    good question. i have long wondered about it myself based on the jawabs given by our Sunni ulama. its a very realistic scenario, and for some reason not many muftis or no one perhaps, address it.

    we need practical solutions from our muftis, not rote text-book answers.

    coming to practical solutions - can we do qiyas on credit cards - in principle it's still a loan and owned by the bank (where not all shareholders might be kuffar), and most of us actually need it! i don't know about the uk, but in the usa, you can't get a mortgage if you don't have a decent credit history, and you can't have a decent credit history till you actually get a credit card and build some credit history. so if credit card is daroorah and jaiz, by extension, so will be the mortgage, yes or no? (question for mufti sahiban)

    what about non-daroorah items / assets / equities - Muslims need to be financially strong in duniya, specially in countries where they are in minorities. look at the state of the poorer section of the indian Muslim. should we build our wealth using the kuffar and their financial institutions where we have realistic possibilities of benefitting from their institutions and systems?

    if only our (bulk majority) muftis stop crying over why we don't address them as hujjatul islam ghausul waqt damat barakatuhumul 3aliya, and think about upliftment of the community, we can achieve more in deen and duniya!
  6. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    How can we ensure that every shareholder of the bank is definitely a non Muslim harbi? What if there are shareholders which are Muslim?
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    There are investors who won't call stocks as assets for any practical intent or purpose, yet others who will defend it as an asset. Interestingly, in the west you can take out loans using stock ownership as collateral! Western finance considers both as equity as far as I know. Read up on Elon musk's using stocks as leverage to finance Twitter and other projects.
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    The question is - benefit to Muslim. Mortgage for example - yes the payment is interest based, but the eventual benefit is home ownership and asset and equity build up. In rent it's nothing. Even if you factor in unexpected death, if you were renting, your next of kin will face the same rental payments you faced. If you were on mortgage, they'd at a minimum inherit some equity. Mortgage payments stop at a point in time. Renting is for life. Do a cash flow diagram and see for yourself. So it's not as simple as paying or receiving cash, but about the overall (realistically and practically expected) benefit or ROI for the Muslim.

    NB. We're not talking about speculative investing like in the stock market here. That's another discussion.

    Even among riba-loving kuffar, this real estate n assets vs stocks n bonds is classic debate in modern finance. There are people (investors) who won't have it any other way than real estate calling stock market as gambling, there are others who will make sense of stocks too with many endorsing a balanced investment portfolio.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Tolu Miyan likes this.
  10. Tolu Miyan

    Tolu Miyan New Member

    Mufti Sahib incorrectly mentions isopropyl alcohol in his fatwa as being khamar

    The only alcohol (organic solvents with the hydroxyl functional group - OH) that is classed as khamar is ethyl alcohol, other alcohols such as methanol, hexanol, propan-2-ol (isopropyl) do not intoxicate, rather they are extremely lethal so are not safe for consumption.

    Also these alcohols have completely different chemical formulas!

    In terms of ethyl alcohol being used for exterior use, it is almost always denatured to render it undrinkable and toxic (the ethanol is mixed with methanol,) the mix being called methylated spirit/denatured alcohol/alcohol denat

    Also, no one can argue that vinegar is not permissible. However vinegar according to the EU's standards can contain up to 1.5% residual/unreacted ethanol.

    My point is these issues are very intricate and proper research should be conducted by the ulama (with experts in the field) before issuing fatawa.
    Uthman likes this.
  11. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    ^if this is what you are referring to, then i have read it.
    and it makes absolute sense. it is logical and sufficiently proven with many evidences. i don't see why this fatwa is a reason to downplay Mufti sahib's qualification and logic...
  12. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    @abu Hasan please can you tell us what is your take?
  13. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    try to read the fatwa if you have the time.

    please read my previous posts carefully. I said that if anyone wants to follow it they can, but I certainly won’t.

    and Masha Allah, Allah has bestowed you with strong intellect and superior knowledge brother.
  14. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    I haven't read the fatwa. But yes. The same applies here. He's a qualified mufti. And you aren't. If you disagree with the fatwa, then don't follow it. But no need to be disrespectful and dismiss it as an illegitimate fatwa based on your own weak intellect and inferior knowledge.
  15. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    you're not paying attention. i just stated that "Riba" is not permissible.

    What you mean to ask is whether Imam Abu Hanifa believed that a muslim, in addition to receiving from, can also give excess money, in the form of interest, to a harbi kafir. Now that's a question that can be discussed.

    Among the Hanafis? like who?
  16. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    Does Imam Abu Hanifa issued fatwa state that it is permissible for Muslims to PAY riba to the people of dar al harb? Or just take riba from these people?

    Like Mufti Zahid’s fatwa that alcohol gels can’t be used in the middle of the covid pandemic? Interesting.

    I’m not pushing this down your throat bro. There are scholars who don’t agree with your definition of dar al harb.

    @abu Hasan really want to hear your take.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2023
  17. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    امين في خير و لطف و عافية
    Uthman likes this.
  18. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    Yes. "RIBA" is clearly prohibited.
    However, money taken from a Harbi Kafir, in the form of interest, is not considered as "RIBA."

    You should ask yourself why you think you are capable of determining whether a concept such as "Dar-ul-Harb" is considered out-dated based on your inferior logic and knowledge, whereas senior Ulema, experts in fiqh with years of in-depth studying and extensive research, do not/have not consider(ed) it as such.
    Umar99 likes this.
  19. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    I was not mocking. I was extremely shocked.

    if you guys feel comfortable taking riba, based upon this fatwa, go ahead. I don’t consider this fatwa binding nor do I personally consider taking riba closer to piety given its strict prohibition in the Quran.

    May Allah guide me if I’m wrong.
  20. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    Riba is clearly prohibited in the Quran. I’m not comfortable taking riba to buy a house, ‘dar al harb’ or not. I live in rent and have always done so.

    We should ask ourselves if the concept of Har al harb exists now, given that countries are no longer ‘theologically driven’. There is no real territorial tension as there was back then.

    if I understand correctly, from what you guys have explained is that every country apart from some Muslim countries are dar ul harb. If what’s clearly Haram, in this case riba, becomes halal in dar al harb, then what else that is inherently haram would become halal in dar al harb?

    We should ask ourselves what’s the Usul behind Imam Abu hanifa’s position? @abu Hasan
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2023

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