Ruling on Mortgages in UK?

Discussion in 'Other Mad'habs' started by AbdalQadir, Jul 24, 2023.

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  1. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    “There is only three types of non Muslims, Zimmi, Musta'min and Harbi.

    Like that there are only two types of lands in the Hanafi Fiqh, Darul Islam and Darul Harb. There is no third type.

    People literally translate Darul Harb and Harbi and assume we think we are at war with the country or the person whereas, this is merely ignorance of the Hanafi Fiqh. In the Hanafi Fiqh, Darul Harb simply means a place that is not Darul Islam. It is called Darul Harb because we may be at peace with them but potentially a Muslim land can be at war with it.

    Like that a Harbi in the Hanafi Fiqh is someone who is neither Zimmi and nor a Musta'min.”

    -Mufti Zahid
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  2. Qadiri Faqir

    Qadiri Faqir New Member

    ‎Mufti Amjad Alī Aazamī [1296-1367 AH / 1878-1948 CE] writes:

    ‎“There are two categories of Dār: Dār al-Islām and Dār al-Harb.

    ‎If a Muslim goes to Dār al-Harb with amān [a guarantee of safety], then that Dār al-Harb is Dār al-Amn for that Muslim, similarly if a harbī kāfir comes to Dār al-Islām with amān, then it is Dār al-Amān for him.

    ‎Therefore, that which is referred to as Dār al-Amān, it is either Dār al-Islām or Dār al-Harb; aside from these two, there is no third category.

    ‎Ribā is absolutely harām. Yes, if the wealth of a harbī kāfir is obtained without deceit then that is permissible wealth; it is permissible to take it, and it does not fall under the definition of ribā, and Allāh تعالی knows best.”

    ‎— Fatāwā Amjadiyyah, 4/200-201

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  3. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

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  4. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    Ad hominem lol

    My critical analysis of your initial objection is that it’s a nonsensical objection

    why are you personally offended?

    you arrogantly dismissed a legitimate fatwa written/spoken by a respected Sunni Alim/Mufti who in his full capacity fulfilled his duty in clarifying a sharii matter for the Awaam.

    Unless you are at his level (or higher) of knowledge, it’s best not to arrogantly mock it and indirectly portray the Mufti as promoting evil (ie your expression of “astaghfirullah”), which btw can be considered an ad hominem

    How about some humility next time.
    If you don’t understand something. Ask politely and with humility.

    For example:

    “Dear respected Mufti,
    Can you please shed more light on why the UK is Darul Harb considering the following circumstances of…”

  5. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    Feel free to make a critical analysis of your objection instead of an ad hominem. I would love to hear your point of view.
  6. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    In terms of suggestions to improve Sunniport. Can we add a dislike button for nonsense like this?
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  7. Uthman

    Uthman Active Member

    How is the UK dar al harb? We live in peace here, have protections and are able to pray with ease in masaajid five times a day.

    if the UK is dar al harb then why is Mufti Zahid not making it his personal obligation to move to dar al islam asap? No one is forcing you to stay here

    this fatwa makes no sense and is just pandering to people who already take interest. We shouldn’t encourage people to take riba. Astaghfirullah
  8. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    So according to this fatwa, not only will the first house to live in be permissible, but so will additional rental properties as long as there is overwhelming certainty that it would benefit the Muslim. Generally speaking, this overwhelming certainty is easy to find with respect to the current UK rental property market and people often have long term tenants lined up before they even purchase the property, through various means.

    Is there a written record of this council's conclusions somewhere on this point?
  9. Qadiri Faqir

    Qadiri Faqir New Member

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  10. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    I pointed this out to Mufti Akmal, and he actually posted a video stating that interest from banks would not be riba only if it has no muslim shareholders. DI muftis hold the same view. However, Tajus shariah had a different view, and one mufti who is his khalifa, told me it would be permissible to take interest from non muslim banks even if the bank is listed in the stock exchange, with possible muslim shareholders.
  11. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    Simply calling a a non Muslim country "Dar al-Harb" is lacking. What is the definition(not our opinion of it) of "Dar al-Harb"?
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  12. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    Ask any parent on here whether they would consider moving house in general if they have kids. Most will come back with a resounding no. For you it might not be undue hardship but for someone else it might be-mentally or financially. Renting out a new place means you have to get references, new deposits etc

    People move all the time yes. I have moved a few times in my life, doesn’t mean it has not been stressful or hard.

    The specific cases I have mentioned cannot be generalised, but I can tell you that the majority of people who live in rent in the UK would rather own their own house instead of living in rent. Increasing rent is a real thing. How often are you going to move? Rulings are surely based on the general situations of people.

    I’d agree that we should leave the haajah to the individual.
  13. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    I would also point out that both points were missing from the dawat e islami answer- is this because the mufti didn't consider them relevant i.e. difference of opinion on these two points that I have raised?
  14. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    But who amongst the first time Muslim house buyers have actually experienced any of the points you mentioned in order for them to think
    'hmmm, maybe there is haajah here'- I doubt it's very many and the vast majority are buying with no consideration to the halal or haram.

    I take your points- perhaps there really is haajah in renting in the UK but in the same way that my experience cannot speak for everyone, neither can the experience of those you mention also speak for everyone. Surely it should be tried before discounting it based on scare stories from others.

    Whilst I can take on board some of your points, I don't consider the pressure of moving home in a school year to be some undue hardship, sorry. People do it all the time and I'm not sure why that would be an issue IF you're not moving schools also. People do that even when buying houses- moving during the school year.

    In any case, I leave the haajah to the individual and their own taqwa.

    As for the second point re not borrowing from a company where even a share is owned by a Muslim, I would like some input as to whether I've understood this correctly and the implications for Muslim house purchases in the West- huge number of lenders would automatically be out of the equation, haajah or not.
  15. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    of course you can talk about it but direct experience is something else. That’s like people who are unmarried giving marital courses and advice about marriage. Yes, you can do it, but you’ll never fully understand the nuances if you’ve not actually lived it.

    I’m not sure you completely understand the stress involved into trying to get into social housing (as you yourself pointed out that it takes time) when you have kids and you don’t have a house to live in. I know people in social housing that live in extremely poor conditions, where the LA don’t even care to fix things in the house. Someone recently told me they have had a hole in their kitchen ceiling for weeks and water from the bathroom of the upstairs resident keeps trickling into his kitchen.

    When you live in rented accommodation, there is no guarantee that you’ll manage to get a house close to the school your kids go to. Say you don’t change schools, the added stress of travelling to school is a lot. Please bear in mind that not all people have the luxury of having plenty of rented accommodation where their kids’ school is like you do. Have you considered the pressure of actually moving in the middle of a school year?

    Have you considered something called stability for yourself and especially your kids?

    Moving houses is not a walk in the park like you make it out to be. If you rent with a company, very often these people are vicious when it comes to doing an exit check and do everything they can to get your whole deposit.

    It’s totally understandable that if people have been threatened to be kicked out or have been kicked out that they fear it. It really affects your mental health to live in such a condiction. It’s not irrational. It’s human.

    Alhamdulillah you had a good experience in rented accommodation where you can live in affordable rent and have a good landlord and may it continue for you, but to generalise this good experience is shortsighted.
  16. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Yes- I have lived in social housing (grew up in it), live in rental accommodation and have done for several years. In any case, even if I had never lived in rented accommodation, I can still talk about it- otherwise are only women fit to talk about feminism? Knowledge can be accrued through other than direct experience.

    People manage to get onto social housing- how hard do you think it is? It can take time, sure- but you still get there eventually. I haven't come across anyone who has tried and failed completely- do you?

    Why would you have to move school if you were kicked out by a landlord? I don't live in the countryside- there are numerous houses available for rent near any given school when you live in a fair sized town or city.

    Why would the fear of being kicked out cause haajah? Or if it has happened once, is that sufficient for it be haajah? How rational is the fear?

    Your points may apply to SOME people- but not all. Most of the people I know buy a house without trying to rent first or without trying to get onto social housing.

    What about the people who actually are already in social housing and try to purchase a property under a right to buy scheme? What's their excuse exactly? The fact is, the vast majority of Muslims being a house today never even stop to consider whether it is halal or haram in the first place. The entire rental market where I live is driven by Muslims who own multiple properties- what's their excuse?
  17. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    1. Have you lived your whole life in rent? If you haven’t then you cannot tell people to do so because you don’t understand the hardships involved with it. Not everybody is able to live for decades in rent without issues. Rents usually go up; something you can afford can quickly become something unaffordable. Landlords often don’t like to fix things in the house. If you’re renting from a company then they visit your house every three-four months to check the house and take pictures of all the rooms in the house.

    2. Do you have children? Have you ever had to look for a new house and school and then move house in the middle of the school year because your landlord has kicked you out?

    3. Have you lived in social housing? Do you know the process for getting social housing? Do you know the living conditions of social housing? Have you ever listened to people who actually have to live in social housing?
  18. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    With respect to this link:

    1. How is owning a first home actually dharura or haajah according to the definitions provided? Anyone can live in rented accommodation fairly easily in the UK, it's just that people don't like paying rent without accruing equity in the property. Wouldn't this fatwa IN PRACTICE actually entail that very few people are allowed to purchase houses? People can rent for decades without issues and even if you have a problem with one landlord, you just find another/ get onto social housing.

    2. It states that taking a loan from any company where even one Muslim has a share will be prohibited. If this is the case, then a huge number of lenders cannot be used as they are publicly traded and will 100% have at least one Muslim shareholder i.e. HSBC, Barclays and the like.

    The above two points make it seem like, although the mufti of dawat e Islami gave permission, that such permission to be taken on face value will not be valid i.e. now the layman has to find a lender who has no Muslim shareholders at all and also has to have haajah at minimum (quite frankly, I've never really seen people buying due to haajah, just buying because they don't want to pay rent with no accrual of equity).
  19. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    I recently learned that owning a second property on mortgage is now halal in non-Muslim countries according to some Sunni scholars and that it was passed just a few years ago. Can anyone shed light on this?
  20. sunniislam

    sunniislam New Member

    Assalamu 'alaykum.

    I hope i can get Shaykh Abu Hasan view and opinion.

    I just want to know, why is there a difference in the scholars of Deoband and most sunni scholars about buying mortgage house in UK/Western countries.
    Many sunni scholars deem it permissble today, and many hanafi scholars of deoband deem it haram, why this difference when they both follow hanafi madhab.

    Secondly, how many sunni scholars still deem it impermissble today.

    Thirdly, is the ruling same for a normal muslim and scholar/muslim who is working for din in dar al-harb to make hijrah if its becoming difficult to act on sharia, meaning faraidh/wajib.

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