Shaykh Asrar on istighathah

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by Hamza_, Jul 31, 2023.

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  1. Hamza_

    Hamza_ New Member

  2. Hamza_

    Hamza_ New Member

    Came across this video on YouTube, a young boy with “breilvi” parents addressing his concerns with the salafi, Shamsi, from Speakers Corner.

    He starts off by saying “ They say Ya Ghaus e Azam, isn’t this shirk?”

    Once you watch this, you can understand which angle Shaykh Asrar is coming from.
  3. Ashari Matuiridi

    Ashari Matuiridi New Member

    I will not provide examples, but it suffices to say, do you imply that the average muslim , sunni or not, actively thinks 'so and so hurt/helped me and Allah is the one who both created the effect and the act and maintained the 'sunna of the asbab'(regular patterns and their designated effects) in this world?

    Regardless of if we are talking about medicines, food, advice or even physical help, the general 'sunni' awaam do not see things in this light, not even remotely?
    Why? Because they are not aware.

    Now what if this aami gets help from the unseen by the means of istigatha? The chances that minor shirk(person still remains a muslim) will creep into his/her heart seems rather high.

    This is how I see it,
    I am willing to change my view if you point out a major flaw in this reasoning and prove the contrary
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    from my post # 30

    Allah forbid if these same naamlewa's of the Ghawth radi Allahu 3anhu ever read JUST ONE discourse of his from Futuh Al-Ghayb or Fath Al-Rabbani on Badi Giyarwhin Shareef! There's better chances of the sun rising from the west before that!

    we have so much tazim and love for Ghawth e Aazam that we meticulously avoid learning or following his teachings - this is ground reality bhai

    we love the Prophet 3alaihis salam, that we will spend all night in naatkhwani, with even tears rolling down our faces handing lots of money to the reciters, but we will not bother to learn just 10 ahadith of his (3alaihis salam) in one year - this IS the reality induced by tanatan molvis, regardless of what they say or how they act or show themselves

    of course, the Quran descended on our beloved Prophet 3alaihis salam, that's all we need to know right? why even bother in uselessly devbandi pursuits like tafsir lessons when we have tazim, fazail, and naatkhwani!

    maybe that's the reason why the devbandis try to pull the wool over the eyes of Syrian and other Sufis! we're catching up explaining our positions to them only now! of course devbandis are beghayrat's and munafiqeen and we all know about it.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2023
    HASSAN likes this.
  5. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Muhammad ibn Adam al-Deobandi writes:

    "Although some scholars may allow these two types of Istighatha (5 and 6) subject to one having a sound belief that it is only Allah who helps in absolute terms, the opinion of many other scholars including most of my teachers (and the position which I hold to be correct) is that such type of Istighatha is an ‘expression’ of Shirk and hence prohibited even if done with a sound belief. Seeking help in a matter not ordinarily in the control of the one whose help is being sought may create a doubt that he is independent in that action, because there is no immediate external reason from Allah’s design in His creation. Since it is a practical expression of Shirk, means to Shirk and resembles the Shirk of the Polytheists (mushrikun), it is forbidden. It is in order to block the means to ‘clear’ Shirk, especially in our times, given the widespread nature of ignorance and corrupt beliefs within the masses."
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    all the jahalat, lack of religiosity, and actual mockery of awliyaa and their mazars that is rampant in desi Sunnis, thanks to tanatan peer saabs and maulvis

    Asrar Rashid can speak for himself, but it doesn't have to necessarily lead to shirk and kufr, it can and does lead to other jahalat and harams

    and YES, it can lead to shirk or messed up aqidah too, deviations from proper Ashari/Maturidi aqidah - just because the wahabis make that argument, doesn't mean it's off limits for us

    maybe that's why so many common people think that praying 5 times a day is a hardened wahabi thing... if they emphasize prayers so much, we should be lax, right? sorry, but this is the result of the attitude taught by tanatan scholars, even if they don't say it in that fashion. remember, the awam always takes a cue from the ulama and goes one step more lax!

    just so you know, i do read Nad-e-Ali, as well as other phrases of istimdad

    you said it brother @ramiz.noorie , now answer please - directly without beating around the bush!

    so what implications does acceptance or denial of istighatha have on a person's aqidah?

    does denial of it take one out of Ahlus Sunnah?

    does denial of it take one out of Islam?

    what is the ruling on the person who gets the concept/aqidah/practice of istighatha wrong and does not comply with basic Sunni aqidah?


    my contention all along on this thread -

    numerous MUTASAWWIF ulama including Ala Hazrat have spoken voraciously against jahil sufis and jahil aqaid and jahil practices creeping into the people of tasawwuf

    our times are different than Ala Hazrat's and the mazar/dargah scene is nothing but an utter disrespect to the pious awliyaa that reside in them. yes i do endorse a wholesale ban on it, to use the words used by another brother for Asrar Rashid's comments on istighatha (see post # 61) - i believe if Ala Hazrat was alive today, he too would issue different rulings regarding visiting mazars/dargahs.

    got nothing against justifying the practice of istighatha itself per the hadith and teachings of Sunni ulama
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2023
  7. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Too right. We don't always want naat. We want to talk about tawhid and the fear of Allah too. Read the Quran and hadith. They are full of texts about taqwa and tawhid.
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    No, they say it's shirk akbar not sadd al-dharayi'.
  9. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    aqdas says: Just because saying Ya Ghawth is permitted doesn't mean we should call that predominantly. We should call upon Allah ta'ala the most. We have to ensure tawhid is taught properly to Sunnis en masse.

    When some people are asked how they are, they say Ghawth paak ka karam.

    No. I disagree. Say Allah ka karam hai.

    Everyone should read Khuda ko yaad kar pyaare of the Barelwi aalim, Allamah Sharaf Qadiri.

    And if anyone thinks we are not Qadiris or Sunni, we openly state: hadayiq of Alahazrat is our aqidah regarding al-Ghawth al-Azam Sayyiduna Imam Abdul Qadir Jilani رضي الله عنه.


    in the above aqdas theory can be applied to our Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, why always naat, tazim and azmat, why not Allah.

    i don't know where this is going?

    not the path of syrian sufis or maghrib sufis

    this is the way of deobandi soofeees
  10. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    brother aqdas misbahi who are you kidding? sadd darai for what ? because it leads to shirk that's why the argument of deobandis and salafis cut and paste of brother asrar rashid.

    look at the arguments made by abdulqadir, what has fajr salah got to do with isthighata
    one is fiqh issue and the other is aqida
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    They say it's shirk akbar. Shaykh Asrar is saying it's permitted. His most recent clip is clearly saying it's ok to say shay'an lillah Ya Abdal Qadir.
  12. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    what's the difference between brother asrar rashid and deobandis when it comes to this subject. or with Ibn taymiyyah...

    i have a feeling every here and then speakers look to raise such issues to grab more attention
  13. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Shaykh Asrar hafizahullah says istighatha bil Awliya is in itself permitted. Fair enough. But he says the layperson should be stopped through sadd al-dhara'i and he applies wholesale on the population.

    This is neither the view of Shaykh Abd al-Hadi Kharsah nor Shah Abdul Haq رحمة الله عليه nor of those who believe in sadd al-dhara'i. Furthermore, as I said before, Shaykh Asrar hafizahullah takes a whole-sale position that is a misreading of these two ulama and applies it on the jamhur.
  14. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    I think it's about time this thread should be locked!
    AR Ahmed likes this.
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    do the social experiment i told you. let the data speak. pull aside a sample of a 100 people from visiting a dargah on any nauchandi jumeraat (first thursday of the lunar month), and ask how many of them prayed Fajr with jama3at on that day. fair deal?

    yes and in my observation desi Sunnis (Sufis) are the worst by far. i agree with Asrar Rasheed. feel free to disagree with me. just my life experience.

    khurafaat and bid3ahs and i3tizal creeping into practices of the Sufis is a common problem with people of tasawwuf, as acknowledged by respectable mutasawwif ulama themselves (desi or non-desi, Ala Hazrat included - passionately refuting jahil sufis)

    yes that's one demographic from the common folk. they don't know or understand or care for differences, will go to any mosque, will visit a dargah if with a certain friend or two, will go to a tablighi ijtema with another friend or two... just a kati patang

    again - let's do the HR test with them - describe Sunni in 3 words (make it easier, three phrases)

    another demographic is the actively dargah going group - you will find them at, you guessed it - dargahs!

    i would suggest you quiz a sample of this dargah going, istighatha practicing demographic, on some very basic kindergarten level test of aqaid and 3ebadah.

    i disagree, sir. but this is just my experience and word against yours.

    we're subcontinentals talking about our back-homes yes?

    not because someone in the uk says so. because the ground realities in the subcontinent dictate so.

    come on bro, they're not that bad!

    the top echelon are far worse!

    the blissfully fast asleep are actually the good ones!

    the badder ones are those who worry only about amassing chanda money, flying long haul from subcontinent to wherever in business class, maintaining their fan base and power, employing hooligans and gundas to maintain their turfs and mureed base, getting chummy with hindu politicians, and all that other good stuff

    they do; and they also address other issues facing their people or the common man (and eventually to recruit him to their jamat)

    other than DI & SDI, Sunnis on the other hand, are obsessed with defining themselves as the anti-thesis of devbandis and wahabis, and just about every maulana is a wannabe deputy of Hazrat e Ghawth

    yes, and that's all they do, sadly - it's a vicious cycle of istighata, fazail, karaamaat, 3urs, notekhwani - to the point that knowledge of aqaid, faraiz, wajibat, hadith, fiqh, tafsir can all go take a long hike! chai se zyada ketli garam!

    and to ascertain if they (ulama) have explained istighatha correctly or not - we go back to our actual field test of pulling aside a random sample of 100 people coming out of a dargah - is that fair? let's repeat that at 20 cities in the subcontinent, ok?

    let's do the field test, gather actual data, and present a dashboard here on Sunniport! ok bro?
    Uthman likes this.
  16. Abdullah91

    Abdullah91 Active Member

    Thank you for your patience my brother.

    haha good one. If you meant this as an insult I forgive you. But I am sure it was just a brotherly joke. Anyway sorry for annoying you it seems you are riled up.

    How is this a response to what I said bro? Read it again. I said we explain istigatha badly. And who said stop istigatha mutlaqan?

    Anyway lets just leave it here I really dont want to get into a back and forth argument.
  17. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    No doubt Shaykh Hamzah al-Bakri is a great Sunni scholar but we follow the jamhur which is what Mufti Zahid is upon.

    I've been trying to be patient with you but it seems 'ilm is not your way. So I am going to explain it slowly so you may comprehend albeit it might take you a couple of centuries. THE JUMHUR IS WITH ISTI'ANAT BIL AWLIYA .....KHALAS. This istidlal of stopping istighatha mutlaqan is the way of Wahabiyya. The statement of Sh Abdal Hadi alKharsah has to do with those who already hold to the position of sadd al-dharai. Its not absolute and its not the majority position.

    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  18. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    بیٹھتے اُٹھتے حضور پاک سے

    التجا و اِستِعانت کیجیے

    یا رسول اللہ دُہائی آپ کی

    گوشمالِ اہلِ بدعت کیجیے

    غوثِ اعظم آپ سے فریاد ہے

    زندہ پھر یہ پاک ملت کیجیے

    یاخدا تجھ تک ہے سب کا مُنتہی

    اولیا کو حکمِ نصرت کیجیے
  19. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Recently, ulama like Mufti Akmal have been objecting to naqeeb e mahfils who say, raise one hand on Na'ara e Takbir and two hands for Na'ara e Risalat.

    Why? Why do they say Takbir once and Risalat many times?

    Why one hand for Takbir but two hands for Risalat? What message are you sending?

    I listened to Shaykh Asrar's clip about saying Ya Ghawth like we would say Ya Allah, chanting repeatedly. I think he's saying a similar thing to above.

    He's asking why?

    He isn't denying Ya Ghawth. He's saying don't do it like you call upon Allah.

    We are ordered to not even read hadith in the manner that we read the Quran. Meaning the melody. We have to differentiate between the words of Allah and words of creation even if they're in Arabic.
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  20. Abdullah91

    Abdullah91 Active Member

    I agree with him. But even if you disagree with his conclusion his way of explaining was excellent. Much better than "don't say ya abdalqadir, say ya Allah. This is what the wahabis say".

    Barelvis promote istigatha the most but we are the worst at explaining it. It is almost like we want to give ammunition to others and almost like we don't care about convincing people of the truth. Say ya gaus paak otherwise you are not a sunni!

    Instead we need to use evidences, speak with wisdom, speak clearly, represent every argument correctly before responding to it. If people have questions let them ask and give them a logical answer with proofs.

    If the above is done, it convinces people. If not, it drives people away.
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