Shaykh Asrar on Mawlid Debates

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Umar99, Feb 20, 2016.

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  1. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    But you know Molwis in the West defend all these topics with much passion.
    Because of the extreme focus on furu`iy masaa'il, most of the awaam think that the differences between Sunnis and Wahabis/Deobandis are only about khatam, durud and milad.

    But they are not able to explain the masses about the fitna of Tahir Minhaji,
    or even the core differences with devbandis, or other current issues like the perennialist tafsir etc.
    I myself have learned about many of these matters (relating to aqidah) from your writings and shaykh Asrar's talks.
  2. I am sure there are different opinions on this. I do wish when holding a gathering inside a Mosque that people remember where they are.
  3. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    See النقص والوقص لمستحل الرقص by Ibrahim Halabi author of ملتقى الابحر. He says its prohibited.

    Also see what Ahmad Ghaznawi the author of الحاوي القدسي writes about these issues.
  4. ridawi

    ridawi Muhammadi Sunni Hanafi

    AlaHazrat's fatwa on the issue:
  5. I am not speaking of the lyrics to what is being recited since I did not pay much attention to them. If some are blameworthy then they are condemned and rejected. As for the throwing of money then I do not see this as something befitting the sanctity of the Masjid.

    If the objection is to the man losing himself, then I refer to the words of our Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon Him) as reported by Abu Said Al Khudri (may Allah be Pleased with Him) " Do so much Zikr until they call you mad". (Ibn Hibban, Ahmad)

    al-Junayd was told: "Certain people indulge in wajd or ecstatic behavior, and sway with their bodies." He replied: "Leave them to their happiness with Allah. They are the ones whose affections have been smashed by the path and whose breasts have been torn apart by effort, and they are unable to bear it. There is no blame on them if they breathe awhile as a remedy for their intense state. If you tasted what they taste, you would excuse their exuberance."

    regarding the Hadith that has become famous for Raqs with Hazrat Ali, Jafar and Zayd ( May Allah be pleased with Them)

    Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami mentions that some scholars have seen in this evidence for the permissibility of dancing (al-raqs) upon hearing a recital (sama`) that lifts the spirit. al-Yafi`i concurs with him in Mir'at al-jinan.Both of them mention al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam as the chief example of such scholars, since it is authentically reported that he himself "attended the sama` and danced in states of ecstasy" (kana yahduru al-sama` wa yarqusu wa yatawajadu), as stated by Ibn al-`Imad on the authority of al-Dhahabi, Ibn Shakir al-Kutabi, al-Yafi`i, al-Nabahani, and Abu al-Sa`adat. *

    *5 al-Haytami, Fatawa hadithiyya p. 212.
    6 al-Yafi`i, Mir'at al-jinan 4:154.
    7 Ibn al-`Imad, Shadharat al-dhahab 5:302; Ibn Shakir
    al-Kutabi, Fawat al-wafayat 1:595; al-Yafi`i, Mir'at al-jinan
    4:154; al-Nabahani, Jami` karamat al-awliya 2:71; Abu al-Sa`adat,
    Taj al-ma`arif p. 250.
    Umer97 likes this.
  6. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

    The videos posted.... o_Oo_O:confused:

    Explains why people are running towards the hills.
  7. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    This is shocking. I have never seen these type of activity inside a masjid. Why did the masjid mgmt committee allow this? Where was the pesh Imam? Where were the learned people who perform salah in this masjid?
  8. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    Will this be addressed?

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  9. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Message from shaykh asrar:

    #See you tomorrow, Thursday, 14 January, 2015 @ Ghamkol Sharif, Birmingham, after 8pm. Support Imam Asim in person not just on social media. I will also clarify many points that have been raised. Be there or be square!

    I will clarify myself and I will refute a few things.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  10. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Active Member

    Can you also provide a reference?
  11. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Active Member

    I feel that from your comment, it infers the battle between Sayyidunā Alī [كرم الله وجهه] and Khawārij which took place in Nahrwan.

    In fact, when 'the battle of the camel' took place between Sayyiduna Ali and other companions [which included Sayyida 'Ayisha and Sayyidunā Talha], Sayyiduna Ali was asked whether those who fought against him in the war were polytheists. He said no. The person then asked whether they were hypocrites. He once again said no. He then said 'they were our brothers who rebelled against us'

    How does this automatically refer to the Khawārij? Can it not mean the companions who fought against Sayyidunā 'Ali? They were his brothers who fought against him.

    Explain to me how it is "unequivocally" referring to the Khawārij?

    I have nothing but respect for Shaykh Asrār. This does not mean I agree with everything he says.
  12. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    If he doesn't hold that position, it's good.

    But the whole deobandi opposition is on the term " mawlud an nabi". Something which is allowed in shariah, and others consider it against the shariah, then that permitted thing should be done more and with emphasis, not leaving it.

    See Shami on wudu and mutazila.
  13. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    He is addressing the layman as our brothers. He is not addressing their scholars.

    Hazrat Ali radiAllahu anhu said regarding khawarij اخواننا بغوا علينا
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  14. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    He doesn't hold that position. He is addressing the objectors. Saying to them that if you don't agree with x y and z why don't you at least do a b and c which is proven from the sunnah?

    It is a rhetoric. He is not telling Sunnis not to call it. Mawlid
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  15. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    He says such gathering should not be called " mawlid".

    One should not try to please everyone or one lands up in Dr.Tahir al qadri's place.
  16. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Active Member

    I wanted to make a few points – for the benefit of myself and other brothers on this forum – which relate to this point.

    A commendable action does not become vituperated and rejected simply because it occurs at the same time & place as a reprehensible action. An example of such – encouraging the commendable actions and rejecting the evil – is also found in Prophetic tradition.

    شر الطعام طعام الوليمة يدعى لها الأغنياء ويترك الفقراء ومن ترك الدعوة فقد عصى الله ورسوله

    [Similar Aḥādīth to this effect can be found in Ṣaḥīḥ Bukhārī, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, Sunan Abū Dawūd, Sunan Ibn Mājah, Muwatta Imām Mālik and others]

    The above hadith strongly emphasis accepting invitations and vehemently refutes those who reject such invitations EVEN after labelling such invitations as the worst of invitations.

    The following extract can be found in Fatāwā Shāmī, in the chapter of visiting graves.


    Yes, if separating the evils from the virtuous was no longer possible then it would become necessary to abandon such gatherings. Even if it be a gathering where Sunnah actions occur alongside reprehensible Bid’ah actions [and to separate the two has become near to impossible] then even such gatherings will be abandoned.

    This is strengthened by ‘Allama Ibn Humām, where he mentioned in Fatḥ al-Qadīr, in the Book of Ṣalāh, chapter of Sujūd al-Sahw:

    “That which conflicts between Sunnah and Bid’ah, is necessary to abandon”

    Note: This is not referring to those things whose actual ruling is debated upon, such as holding a staff in Jum’a Khutba.

    Another important point is that: if people are told to stop doing Mīlād gatherings, simply because SOME bad things occur in SOME Mīlād gatherings then people will stop doing them altogether. The laymen, who at this time: go to the Masājid, listen to Na’at, listen to speeches, donate money to feed other Muslims, donate to the Masājid, etcetera, will be handed an excused not to do good deeds. As a matter of fact, despite Mīlād not being a fundamental issue, it has become a sign of the true Muslims and to uphold it is vital.

    Yes – scholars have rejected those gatherings where evils take place however, in this day and age, where people have no desire to do good deeds nor do they have any care for religion, scholars have said not to stop laymen from doing deeds which are intrinsically commendable but reprehensible due to some contingent factors.

    It is mentioned in Durr al-Mukhtār, in the book of Ṣalāh, chapter of Eidayn:

    “As for the laymen - do not stop them from doing Takbīr or from praying Nafl at all, due to their lack of passion in doing good deeds.

    A similar ruling can be found in Baḥr al-Rayiq, in the book of Ṣalāh:

    “Those people who pray Fajr, at the time of sunrise, should not be stopped from doing so. This is because if they are stopped from such, then they will abandon the action completely. Their praying of Ṣalah at sunrise is permissible according to the aṣḥāb of Ḥadīth; the fulfillment of an action according to some, is better than abandoning it altogether.”

    As for the Shaykh calling them “our brothers” – I hope it was a mistake and an error of the tongue. There is no Salafi who does not label the followers of the Ahl al-Sunnah as ‘Mushriks’ and ‘Bidatis’ in fact, the majority of them attack almost all of our previous scholars bar a few. Despite there being ikhtilaf in the anesthetisation of the Salafis, no one disagrees that they are innovators and invite others to Bid’ah. To call such people “our brothers” is foolish, just as it is foolish to call for slogans of brotherhood between Sunni and Shias.
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  17. Ethical_Barelvi

    Ethical_Barelvi Active Member

    Theres me thinking this is a 'dig' at Imaam Asaam saab's recent debate with Dawah Man. Shaykh Asrar has highligted some important points in relation to the celebration of Mawlid in current Modern Day Times.

    One can only agree with some of the points he has made and depending which side of the fence you sit on-or your a neautral and you you have an opnion for both sides-the flag waving, cake cutting, fairy lights side or the simple Mawlid with the Shaykh mentions-which in many cases will attract a wider audience-these methods have been used by the Deobandis, Wahhabis for a long time and they have pulled in our local Sunni Youth in local areas, unis,colleges etc.

    You can see where Mawalana sahib is taking the argument, it is just some of us are blind to see and can't think out the box.
  18. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    I watched Shaykh Asrar's video liked at post no 1 at this thread.

    Shaykh Asrar says" lets stop calling this gathering as mawlid".

    And I ask why?

    Doesn't Shaykh Asrar know that deobandis have no problem in conducting " seerat al rasul" function? They have problem with the word" mawlud an nabi". Perhaps Shaykh Asrar needs to read the history of deobandis and the reason why deobandis have problem with "mawlud an nabi" and not " seerat an nabi". Barahin e qatiya and its radd by Allama Abdus sami rh would be benificial.

    Decoration on mawlud an nabi is sunnat e ilahi. See al bidaya. Those who object this have no problem in decorating their private functions or functions of their organization.

    Reciting praise of prophet alayhis salam, in which there is no mention of blessed birth will technically not be a mawlid gathering. A mawlid gathering must have events describing birth of prophet alayhis salam, be it in the form of poetry, hadith narration, or description.

    I do not agree that " vast majority of the people" commit innovation. This might be in UK. Atleast in India, the " vast majority" conducts mawlid function as per shariah. If one video of innovation is uploaded on U tube, I can upload 100 videos in which shariah rules are allowed in mawlid gathering.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    to some perhaps. to me it gave no such impression.

    let's not stir the pot when we all agree on the same thing essentially - permissibility and praiseworthiness of Mawlid.

    the crux of the matter is this:

    i think there are 3 things here, for our times at least

    1. permissibility of mawlid itself (no disagreements. no one asked anyone to stop defending or discussing this)
    2. impermissible actions/munkarat in mawlid celebrations (again no disagreements. no one said you like the munkarat or don't speak against them; despite the fact that a lot of scholars sweep this under the rug)

    i think Sh Asrar didn't articulate well, but he was probably talking about the third thing

    3*. a) the abusers, who behave like us in defending the permissibility (against wahabis) but really only use that defense as a launchpad to push their own jahl, heresies, fan clubs, and vested interests etc..
    b) those who brush the munkarat under the rug (some may not do it, and Hafizdh As-Suyuti certainly didn't, but many many 'scholars' do) and somehow manage to club it together with 'defense of the Mawlid event itself'
    c) those who are incompetent and inept in defending Ahlus Sunnah and make us look silly.

    the 3rd point is not the same thing as a 40 yr old teenager coming to the mosque or a Mawlid gathering wearing low cut jeans and exposing his backside (a norm again these days) and a maulana correcting him

    *PS. i'm not saying any of these apply to the imam Asim who was debating that wahabi cartoon


    actually that "very sorry to say" was for Sunnis in general because of our state of affairs. i didn't assume you disagreed with Sh Asrar on shunning munkarat.


    you didn't get me. qtv is a case of people brushing things under the rug, and not addressing the munkarat properly. as far as female presenters are concerned. they can advise the female presenters to be properly dressed in compliance with the Shari3ah. i could bring in more fiqh points from my meager understanding but we'll leave that for later.

    but anyways that's a lesser issue that they have brushed under the rug. the damned elephant in the room is tahir whom they promote.

    no. don't stop celebrating.

    strike a balance in our approach.

    maybe even change the approach to be more effective

    list out all of these actions to dawah man and ask him which of these are haram/halal and why, if someone or a group of people do it on their own free will at a time and place of their choosing?

    by the same token, ask a couple of Sunni scholars that if all these actions took place in a gathering, and we just didn't call it "Mawlid/Milad", would things be any different?

    what if 1 person did only the first 3 actions, and another the next 3, and a third person does the last 3 actions - could each person's individual event be called a Mawlid and/or reward worthy? if not, why not? if yes, why yes?

    we need to be against donkeys like this dawah man
    we also need to be against a whole truckload of Sufis and juhalaa

    we also need to ourselves address genuine issues of munkarat being done, for it is more painful when idiots like this dawah man bring them to our attention.

    it applies to any event where munkarat take place. in some cases they are the norm. example, dargah's and all the munkarat that take place there.

    i speak only for myself, not Sh Asrar. perhaps he had something totally else in his mind when saying that in that video.

    Allah knows best.
  20. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    If some one thinks that we criticize non shari'i acts during mawlid gathering to please others, then this assumption is wrong. Because our elders, like Imam Suyuti rh, Imam Ibn Hajar etc, they all held mawlid gathering to be permissible but said that such gathering must be free of ghayr shari'i things. So it is the requirement of sharia that wrong things be avoided.

    Secondly, we conduct mawlid gathering for our own sake. It brings happiness, we thank Allah ta'ala ,it brings baraka. It was our prophet sal allahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam, who taught us about Allah. Who taught the world about human rights, no racial discrimination , rights of slave. rights of animals etc. So mawlid gathering is a source of spiritual blessings as well knowledge.

    Thirdly, it should be known that deobandis/ wahabbis will never join mawlud gathering because as per rashid gangohi , deobandis are not allowed to join even those gatherings in which "no gahyr shari'i activity" takes place and only ' sahih ahadith " are read out.

    A few fatawa from deobandi book " fatwa rashidiya" ( written by rashid gangohi)

    Question1 : Can we participate in those mawlud gathering in which no ghayr shari'i activity takes place and only sahih ahadith are read out?
    Answer: No, it is not allowed , due to some other reason.

    Question 2: Can we drink water/ sweet drink from the sabil which is installed during the month of muharram? ( Note: it is for the ithal e sawab)
    Answer: No.

    Question 3: At some place people consider it a sin to eat black crow's flesh. what should we do?
    Answer: At that place eating crow's flesh will give you reward.

    Question 4: Hindus give sweets during holi and diwali, can we eat?
    Answer: It is permissible / there is no harm.

    This is deobandi religion.

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