Shaykh Asrar on Mawlid Debates

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by abu Hasan, Nov 16, 2022.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I only just got round to watching the video.

    I can see shaykh asrar's words in this and other recent lectures as a strategic shift in methodology. He is fencing himself inside the bastion of matters which are beyond dispute, incontrovertible, except for those who have already reached the point of no return. Seeing the situation in the west, I can appreciate where he is coming from. He wants to narrow down the debate to something more manageable and easier for the laity to grasp.Not because he himself lacks conviction or evidences but because the general populace is so gullible and easily swayed by whispers.

    There are tens of issues and the opponents use the furu'i issues to distract and divert attention away from the core ones. I think he is trying to shift the focus of online and offline debates to issues in which the opponents have little room for dissent. (see how bananaman cleverly sneaked 'ilm e ghaib into the list of furu').

    I don't think he will start criticizing sunnis who do call their gatherings as mawlids or who recite the burdah instead of tala'al badru 'alayna.

    Although, personally I would never call salafis 'brothers', I agree with Moriarty that he is referring to the more innocuous of the lot who haven't gone over completely yet. He also asked that if we stuck to the sunnah would there be issues amongst muslims? The simple answer is yes, because some people's livelihoods depend on that. But may be he meant it rhetorically, that there should not be any issues.

    All in all, seeing UK's conditions, I think his statements were not too far off the mark. Whether his methodology will prove to be a game changer or not, only time will tell.

    And Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Ghulam Ali, Moriarty and Haqbahu like this.
  2. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

    Shaykh Asrar wasn't given the opportunity to speak never the less he clarified that Sunni Masjids should not call innovators like Tahir Minhaji.
  3. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    But you know Molwis in the West defend all these topics with much passion.
    Because of the extreme focus on furu`iy masaa'il, most of the awaam think that the differences between Sunnis and Wahabis/Deobandis are only about khatam, durud and milad.

    But they are not able to explain the masses about the fitna of Tahir Minhaji,
    or even the core differences with devbandis, or other current issues like the perennialist tafsir etc.
    I myself have learned about many of these matters (relating to aqidah) from your writings and shaykh Asrar's talks.
  4. I am sure there are different opinions on this. I do wish when holding a gathering inside a Mosque that people remember where they are.
  5. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    See النقص والوقص لمستحل الرقص by Ibrahim Halabi author of ملتقى الابحر. He says its prohibited.

    Also see what Ahmad Ghaznawi the author of الحاوي القدسي writes about these issues.
  6. ridawi

    ridawi Muhammadi Sunni Hanafi

    AlaHazrat's fatwa on the issue:
  7. I am not speaking of the lyrics to what is being recited since I did not pay much attention to them. If some are blameworthy then they are condemned and rejected. As for the throwing of money then I do not see this as something befitting the sanctity of the Masjid.

    If the objection is to the man losing himself, then I refer to the words of our Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon Him) as reported by Abu Said Al Khudri (may Allah be Pleased with Him) " Do so much Zikr until they call you mad". (Ibn Hibban, Ahmad)

    al-Junayd was told: "Certain people indulge in wajd or ecstatic behavior, and sway with their bodies." He replied: "Leave them to their happiness with Allah. They are the ones whose affections have been smashed by the path and whose breasts have been torn apart by effort, and they are unable to bear it. There is no blame on them if they breathe awhile as a remedy for their intense state. If you tasted what they taste, you would excuse their exuberance."

    regarding the Hadith that has become famous for Raqs with Hazrat Ali, Jafar and Zayd ( May Allah be pleased with Them)

    Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami mentions that some scholars have seen in this evidence for the permissibility of dancing (al-raqs) upon hearing a recital (sama`) that lifts the spirit. al-Yafi`i concurs with him in Mir'at al-jinan.Both of them mention al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam as the chief example of such scholars, since it is authentically reported that he himself "attended the sama` and danced in states of ecstasy" (kana yahduru al-sama` wa yarqusu wa yatawajadu), as stated by Ibn al-`Imad on the authority of al-Dhahabi, Ibn Shakir al-Kutabi, al-Yafi`i, al-Nabahani, and Abu al-Sa`adat. *

    *5 al-Haytami, Fatawa hadithiyya p. 212.
    6 al-Yafi`i, Mir'at al-jinan 4:154.
    7 Ibn al-`Imad, Shadharat al-dhahab 5:302; Ibn Shakir
    al-Kutabi, Fawat al-wafayat 1:595; al-Yafi`i, Mir'at al-jinan
    4:154; al-Nabahani, Jami` karamat al-awliya 2:71; Abu al-Sa`adat,
    Taj al-ma`arif p. 250.
    Umer97 likes this.
  8. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

    The videos posted.... o_Oo_O:confused:

    Explains why people are running towards the hills.
  9. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    This is shocking. I have never seen these type of activity inside a masjid. Why did the masjid mgmt committee allow this? Where was the pesh Imam? Where were the learned people who perform salah in this masjid?
  10. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    Will this be addressed?

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  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Message from shaykh asrar:

    #See you tomorrow, Thursday, 14 January, 2015 @ Ghamkol Sharif, Birmingham, after 8pm. Support Imam Asim in person not just on social media. I will also clarify many points that have been raised. Be there or be square!

    I will clarify myself and I will refute a few things.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  12. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Well-Known Member

    Can you also provide a reference?
  13. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Well-Known Member

    I feel that from your comment, it infers the battle between Sayyidunā Alī [كرم الله وجهه] and Khawārij which took place in Nahrwan.

    In fact, when 'the battle of the camel' took place between Sayyiduna Ali and other companions [which included Sayyida 'Ayisha and Sayyidunā Talha], Sayyiduna Ali was asked whether those who fought against him in the war were polytheists. He said no. The person then asked whether they were hypocrites. He once again said no. He then said 'they were our brothers who rebelled against us'

    How does this automatically refer to the Khawārij? Can it not mean the companions who fought against Sayyidunā 'Ali? They were his brothers who fought against him.

    Explain to me how it is "unequivocally" referring to the Khawārij?

    I have nothing but respect for Shaykh Asrār. This does not mean I agree with everything he says.
  14. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    If he doesn't hold that position, it's good.

    But the whole deobandi opposition is on the term " mawlud an nabi". Something which is allowed in shariah, and others consider it against the shariah, then that permitted thing should be done more and with emphasis, not leaving it.

    See Shami on wudu and mutazila.
  15. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    He is addressing the layman as our brothers. He is not addressing their scholars.

    Hazrat Ali radiAllahu anhu said regarding khawarij اخواننا بغوا علينا
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  16. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    He doesn't hold that position. He is addressing the objectors. Saying to them that if you don't agree with x y and z why don't you at least do a b and c which is proven from the sunnah?

    It is a rhetoric. He is not telling Sunnis not to call it. Mawlid
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  17. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    He says such gathering should not be called " mawlid".

    One should not try to please everyone or one lands up in Dr.Tahir al qadri's place.
  18. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Well-Known Member

    I wanted to make a few points – for the benefit of myself and other brothers on this forum – which relate to this point.

    A commendable action does not become vituperated and rejected simply because it occurs at the same time & place as a reprehensible action. An example of such – encouraging the commendable actions and rejecting the evil – is also found in Prophetic tradition.

    شر الطعام طعام الوليمة يدعى لها الأغنياء ويترك الفقراء ومن ترك الدعوة فقد عصى الله ورسوله

    [Similar Aḥādīth to this effect can be found in Ṣaḥīḥ Bukhārī, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, Sunan Abū Dawūd, Sunan Ibn Mājah, Muwatta Imām Mālik and others]

    The above hadith strongly emphasis accepting invitations and vehemently refutes those who reject such invitations EVEN after labelling such invitations as the worst of invitations.

    The following extract can be found in Fatāwā Shāmī, in the chapter of visiting graves.


    Yes, if separating the evils from the virtuous was no longer possible then it would become necessary to abandon such gatherings. Even if it be a gathering where Sunnah actions occur alongside reprehensible Bid’ah actions [and to separate the two has become near to impossible] then even such gatherings will be abandoned.

    This is strengthened by ‘Allama Ibn Humām, where he mentioned in Fatḥ al-Qadīr, in the Book of Ṣalāh, chapter of Sujūd al-Sahw:

    “That which conflicts between Sunnah and Bid’ah, is necessary to abandon”

    Note: This is not referring to those things whose actual ruling is debated upon, such as holding a staff in Jum’a Khutba.

    Another important point is that: if people are told to stop doing Mīlād gatherings, simply because SOME bad things occur in SOME Mīlād gatherings then people will stop doing them altogether. The laymen, who at this time: go to the Masājid, listen to Na’at, listen to speeches, donate money to feed other Muslims, donate to the Masājid, etcetera, will be handed an excused not to do good deeds. As a matter of fact, despite Mīlād not being a fundamental issue, it has become a sign of the true Muslims and to uphold it is vital.

    Yes – scholars have rejected those gatherings where evils take place however, in this day and age, where people have no desire to do good deeds nor do they have any care for religion, scholars have said not to stop laymen from doing deeds which are intrinsically commendable but reprehensible due to some contingent factors.

    It is mentioned in Durr al-Mukhtār, in the book of Ṣalāh, chapter of Eidayn:

    “As for the laymen - do not stop them from doing Takbīr or from praying Nafl at all, due to their lack of passion in doing good deeds.

    A similar ruling can be found in Baḥr al-Rayiq, in the book of Ṣalāh:

    “Those people who pray Fajr, at the time of sunrise, should not be stopped from doing so. This is because if they are stopped from such, then they will abandon the action completely. Their praying of Ṣalah at sunrise is permissible according to the aṣḥāb of Ḥadīth; the fulfillment of an action according to some, is better than abandoning it altogether.”

    As for the Shaykh calling them “our brothers” – I hope it was a mistake and an error of the tongue. There is no Salafi who does not label the followers of the Ahl al-Sunnah as ‘Mushriks’ and ‘Bidatis’ in fact, the majority of them attack almost all of our previous scholars bar a few. Despite there being ikhtilaf in the anesthetisation of the Salafis, no one disagrees that they are innovators and invite others to Bid’ah. To call such people “our brothers” is foolish, just as it is foolish to call for slogans of brotherhood between Sunni and Shias.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  19. Ethical_Barelvi

    Ethical_Barelvi Active Member

    Theres me thinking this is a 'dig' at Imaam Asaam saab's recent debate with Dawah Man. Shaykh Asrar has highligted some important points in relation to the celebration of Mawlid in current Modern Day Times.

    One can only agree with some of the points he has made and depending which side of the fence you sit on-or your a neautral and you you have an opnion for both sides-the flag waving, cake cutting, fairy lights side or the simple Mawlid with the Shaykh mentions-which in many cases will attract a wider audience-these methods have been used by the Deobandis, Wahhabis for a long time and they have pulled in our local Sunni Youth in local areas, unis,colleges etc.

    You can see where Mawalana sahib is taking the argument, it is just some of us are blind to see and can't think out the box.
  20. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    I watched Shaykh Asrar's video liked at post no 1 at this thread.

    Shaykh Asrar says" lets stop calling this gathering as mawlid".

    And I ask why?

    Doesn't Shaykh Asrar know that deobandis have no problem in conducting " seerat al rasul" function? They have problem with the word" mawlud an nabi". Perhaps Shaykh Asrar needs to read the history of deobandis and the reason why deobandis have problem with "mawlud an nabi" and not " seerat an nabi". Barahin e qatiya and its radd by Allama Abdus sami rh would be benificial.

    Decoration on mawlud an nabi is sunnat e ilahi. See al bidaya. Those who object this have no problem in decorating their private functions or functions of their organization.

    Reciting praise of prophet alayhis salam, in which there is no mention of blessed birth will technically not be a mawlid gathering. A mawlid gathering must have events describing birth of prophet alayhis salam, be it in the form of poetry, hadith narration, or description.

    I do not agree that " vast majority of the people" commit innovation. This might be in UK. Atleast in India, the " vast majority" conducts mawlid function as per shariah. If one video of innovation is uploaded on U tube, I can upload 100 videos in which shariah rules are allowed in mawlid gathering.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016

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