Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Waqar786, Jan 2, 2021.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    @Abul Hasnayn ... Are you just going to be a publicist for Nabeel Afzal and gonna just post press releases and run, or are you willing to discuss too? If it's just the former, I'm sure we all have YouTube to see the pro and anti comments.

    Just the same, I'm really curious for this here 2 things.

    Are that fatwa and ample evidence available as a PDF or book or something?

    The ummah can all benefit from this ample evidence and the fatwa issued.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  2. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Nabeel Afzal Irfani (not Qadiri), will you have some ghayrat and tell us your fatwa on Mawlana Ghulam Rasul Saeedi rahimahullah and on Muhaddith e Kabeer Allamah Ziya al Mustafa Hafizahullah who is the ustadh of Mawlana irfan shah mashadi?

    You claim people jumped on a bandwagon (#9) , are you willing to own up to the fact that you yourself are insulting Muhaddith e Kabeer hafizahuLlah?

    You claim that Allama Jalali used the term "impermissible" for Sayyida Fatima radhiallahu anha. This was used by Allama Ghulam Rasul Saeedi rahimahullah. Your fatwa please....

    You claim that using Khata e ijtihadi or Khata for anbiya alayhim al-salam is weakening the religion. What then is your fatwa on Mulla Ali al-Qari rahimahullah?

    Answer these questions.
  3. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Will you relay the responses back to Nabeel Afzal or are you here only to post his message?
  4. Abul Hasnayn

    Abul Hasnayn musjidulhaq.com


    1. Dr Ashraf used the word KHATA (Error/Sin) for an act of Sayyidah Fatimah رضي الله عنها. He used this word on several occassions with great courage and disturbing body language.

    2. The word Khata in Common language (Urf) when used unrestrictedly means 'Gunaah' [Sin] or 'Jurm' [Crime].

    3. No person in Islamic history has used this word unrestrictedly for Sayyida Paak.

    4. He has made the excuse that he used this word in response to The Rawafidh in defence of Sayyiduna Abu Bakrرضی اللہ عنہ

    5. No scholar in 1400 years has used this term for Sayyida Fatima رضی اللہ عنھا when refuting the Rawafidh Shia. Dr Ashraf is not the 1st person to refute The Rawafidh.

    6. He tried to use the text of Pir Syed Mehr Ali Shah Golarwi in his defence but failed as Pir Sahib has never used this term himself or anything similar to it. Why did Dr Ashraf find it necessary to use the words that Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib did not when explaining Fadak & when answering the Shia in his famous book Tasfiya Ma Bayn Sunni wa Shia.

    7. A day after his initial statement he changed his view to 'Be Khata, Be Gunaah - Sayyida Zahra' [Free from Error, Free from Sin, Lady Zahra]

    8. A day later to that he further changed his view, that his initial statement referred to 'Khata Ijtihadi' [Error of Judgement]

    9. Those who have jumped on a bandwagon to say that once Dr Ashraf has clarified his view then that is sufficient, maybe need to study more.

    10. When clarification is given of an earlier statement then that earlier statement should be abandoned. However Dr Ashraf after his clarification still defends his initial statement to date and has repeated it on several occassions.

    11. He has created 3 stages for his clarification.
    Stage 1 - Discussing the life of Sayyida Fatima - The word Khata can not be used
    Stage 2 - When praising Sayyida Fatima - The word Khata can not be used
    Stage 3 - When answering the Rawafidh on Fadak the word Khata CAN be used

    12. This 3 stage format in no way allows someone to make this statement. It should be known that Ashraf Ali Thanwi mentioned the exact same 3 stage process for the derogatory words he used for Rusool Allah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم, saying i used these terms of Comparison to only answer those who believe The Messenger صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم unseen knowledge is equal to Allah. [Bast ul Banaan]

    Even after his clarification he was still ordered to retract and make Tawbah from his initial statement. The Fatwa of Kufr on him is for his initial statement. Him remaining adamant and persisting with defence of his statement.

    13. Dr Ashraf even after clarification is still persisting & defending his initial statement and has not made an official retraction.

    14. Those who say the word KHATA has 'even' been used for Prophets عليهم السلام are very much treading on the boundaries of Shariah. The Prophets of Allah علیھم السلام are free from error. If a Prophet can make an error then that weakens our religion, The Quran & The message as there is now scope for error. Where a Prophet of Allah علیہ السلام during his educational & nurturing period makes a mistake that is between him and his Lord. No human being is allowed to make judgement on the issue.

    15. The example used continuously of Sayyiduna Adam علیہ السلام eating from the tree and then deducting the same for Sayyida Paak رضی اللہ عنہ is utter ignorance. This event occured firstly in Paradise, It was between Allah (Teacher) & his student (Adam), The negative command of 'Do not go near this tree' was from Allah & No other human being had yet been created so how can a ruling be deducted from this & then be fitted on to human beings or used as an example.

    16. Indeed KHATA IJTIHADI is not a sin and is rewarding but that is not the issue here.

    17. Those who can not give an answer are continuously diverting the issue elsewhere.

    18. Dr Ashraf has also used another seriously disrespectful statement towards Sayyida Paak in saying 'By asking for Fadak she was asking for Haraam wealth from which Sayyiduna Abu Bakr Saved her' Astaghfirullah.

    19. These statements and the manner in which they have been addressed are seriously disrespectful.

    20. Those Ullema & Mashaikh who addressed Dr Ashraf to retract were labelled Rafidhis which again is a sign of ignorance.

    21. Dr Ashraf was approached by a group of Senior ullema 5 days after his statement asking him to retract and end this Fitna but instead he verbally disrespected them and asked them to leave his premises.

    The Senior Ullema who attended were:

    - Dr Ashraf's Murshids Son Hazrat Mufti Syed Naveed ul Hassan Shah Sahib Mash'hadi
    - His main Ustadh Allama Mufti Zahoor Ahmed Jalali from whom he studied 8 years
    - Ustaz ul Ullema Allama Mufti Abdus Sattar Saeedi (Jamia Nizamiya Lahore)
    - Allama Pir Syed Muzaffar Hussain Shah Sahib (Karachi)
    - And many others. However they were all disrespected and turned away.

    22. Hazrat Mian Jaleel Ahmed Sharaqpuri (Astana Aaliya Sharaqpur Sharif) was appointed the 3rd person to liase and arrange for a discussion between Hujjat ul Islam Pir Syed Irfan Shah Mash'hadi & Dr Ashraf. After a week of waiting that offer was rejected.

    23. Then Mian Sahib approached Dr Ashraf in order to arrange a debate between Shah Sahib Qibla who is Dr Ashrafs teacher and taught him for over 5 years. This was also rejected.

    24. With no other option and after a month of failed efforts for an amicable solution A Shar'i verdict [Fatwa] was issued on him of being misguided from senior ullema. The writer being One of his teachers, A teacher at Jamia Muhammadiya Bhikhi Sharif for 32 years and on the board of Ifta for 20 years Ustaz ul Ullema Allama Mufti Jameel Ahmed Siddiqi. This has been endorsed by over 150 Ullema & Mashaikh.

    25. There are certain arrogant people who refer to these Sunni Ullema & Mashaikh as Shias, Tafdeelis, wrong & Ignorant yet themselves do not have a single qualification of deen to show. Some can not even write a 3 word sentence in Arabic. It is easy to sit behind hidden ID's, Pen names on key boards & Fb and issue valueless verdicts. This is a matter of Deen and should only be discussed by qualified Ullema.

    26. Ample evidence has been presented for over a month to Dr Ashraf to reconsider and take back his initial statement. But he has rejected.

    27. A single statement of retraction would have saved this ummah from another Fitnah but arrogance, pride & ignorance has once again divided us.

    28. The sad result of this is that in defending The Sahabah some of our Sunnis have become prone to Kharijism & Nasibism. This cancer has crept into our lines. Others have become Tafdeelis in trying to praise the Ahlul bayt. A balance is required.

    We have been taught by our elders to never defend the Ahlul bayt by slandering the companions, This is the way of the Rawafidh Shia and do not ever defend the companions by slandering the Ahlul bayt, This is the way of the Khawarij & Naasabis.

    The Ahlusunnah is balanced, we have love for both and defend both without degrading any.

    29. We demand Dr Ashraf retract his statement and make Tawbah in The majesty of Allah عز و جل، The Messenger of Allah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم & Sayyida Fatima Zahra رضی اللہ عنھا and end this Fitnah once and for all.

    30. May Allah keep the faith and Iman of our Sunnis safe and grant us Love & respect for both Aal & Ashaab of Rusool Ullah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم و رضی اللہ عنھم اجمعین

    Khadim e Ahle Sunnat
    Mohammed Nabeel Afzal Qadri via FB
  5. izz al-Din

    izz al-Din Well-Known Member

    Any chance you could mention Ala Hadrat, Rahmatullahi Taala alayh
    Understanding about the following ?
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Modify that to: ONE OF THE highest ranking ladies in the kainat

    Afaik, there's ikhtilaf of ulema (real ones from classical era) re THE highest ranking lady:

    Don't forget Quranic ayah:


    Bibi Maryam 3alaihas Salam her status is the closest a lady's can be to prophethood

    Within the Prophet 3alaihis Salam household itself, afaik there's ikhtilaf of ulema if the most mufaddal is Sayyidah Fatimah or her blessed mother Ummuna Khadija or Ummuna 3Aishah, radi Allahu 3anhunna

    The other greatest ladies are Ummuna Havva, Asiya bint Muzahim (wife of firawn), and our mothers wives of our father Ibrahim 3laihis Salam, Sarah and Haajar, radi Allahu 3anhunna

    Even I have used the honorific Sayyidah Nisaa Al-3aalameen but afaik, Arab Sunni ulema too have used it

    In any case, the case of esteemed ladies has ikhtilaf and is not as clear cut as men.

    The greatest are the Ulul 3zm prophets, starting with Prophet Muhammad, then Ibrahim, then Musa, then 3Isa, then Nuh, then other prophets (3alaihimus Salam), and after the prophets the best of men are Abu Bakr then Umar, then Usman, then Ali ridwan Allahi 3alaihim ajma3een
  7. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Pir Mufti Ghulam Qadir Siddiqui reminding Irfan Shah sahib about elders of Bhikhi sharif (esp Sayyid Mazhar Qayyum Mashhadi) and exposing rafizi/qadiyani designs.

    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    look at the other thread of those idiotic clowns lying without any shame about the ilm al-ghayb. the right response is to call their bluff. a moron is a moron even if he wears expensive clothes. that they are prize idiots is written all over their wretched faces.

    same with shia rafidi tafizili neem-rafizi matam and dramabaazi.

    tell them: thank you very much. we don't need your certificate for our love and respect of ahl al-bayt. criticising irfan's shah's flagrant violation of shariah is not criticism of the great imams.

    la in fakharta bi-aabaa'in dhawi Hasabin
    laqad Sadaqta walakin bi'ysa ma waladu

    لئن فخرت بآباء ذوي حسب
    لقد صدقت و لكن بئس ما ولدوا

    if you gloat that your ancestors were great men of high ancestry
    you speak the truth; but what an evil folk they have given birth to!

    nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i don't know. i have not seen this among arabs.

    by that logic, the noble imams hasan and husayn should be sayyidu'l kainat too. the ta'weel is the leaders of young men in paradise.

    no one stops you from using abu'z zahra; but remember that the kunyah mentioned in the first generations (ho! where is irfan shah's beloved first three gen theory), you won't find this appellation used.

    summary: don't criticise someone for using abu'l qasim sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam as his kunyah; that is the standard. if you wish to use abu'z zahra'a go ahead and use it, but don't ape the rawafid who have a paranoia and this victim complex; who take 'offence' to the most silly and innocuous things and act like drama queens.

    the current episode is a classic example.
  10. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @AbdalQadir I agree that they should be treated harshly as they are a massive fitna and their beliefs they need to be rooted out. However, it still requires wisdom and don't make statements that aid their propaganda. Other forum members by being resigned that these disease is here to stay indicates how embedded it has come. This is why to deal with it is going to require a lot of strength and heart but wisdom too because we have to win the hearts of our unfortunately duped sunni awaam.
  11. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @abu Hasan could a ta'weel be that sayida Fatima is highest ranking female in the ka'inaat. Is this possible?

    In the Arab world, people still normally use Abu Zahra instead of Abu Qasim because sayida Fatima is the most beloved to the Holy prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) out of their blessed children.
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    See... 295 C is being mentioned

    As I said, the jahil neem-rafidi peerzadas booked him under blasphemy law, and this time any honest person can say they are abusing the law. That is the point that the liberal secularists will latch on to

    All these people should hang their heads in shame.

    Khadim Hussain sahab the mujahid of the Sunnis, the great defender of Naamoose Risalat in Pakistan should give a talk to people and campaign actively for Jalali's hanging if he honestly believes the law is rightly applied.

    Muzaffar Shah should also launch a campaign to get capital punishment for Jalali, the same way he spoke against that christian asia bibi.

    If they don't, are they willing to admit this isn't a case of blasphemy? Or was the rage against asia only a matter of convenience?

    Jalali might be acquitted or might get capital punishment. However, the issue will get dragged on for a long time by the liberals, all thanks to these jahil peerzadas.

    The "ulema" have themselves misapplied and made a mockery of the blasphemy law, and it's open for all to see.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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  13. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    That should also include Munawwar Shah Bukhari of Blackburn, the guy who runs Sadat Hajj and Umrah travels in UK. This is the guy who is seen the most lifting his hands in applause as and when Irfan Shah started uttering all this garbage from his mouth.

    And it should include any other UK ppl in the video in case I have missed anyone else. They all need to be named and shamed!
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    even sunnis keep saying 'sayyidah e ka'inat'.

    this is incorrect.
    because 'kainat' includes khulafa rashidin, prophets, angels, the four great angels and sayyid e kainat sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam HIMSELF.

    which implies that sayyidah faTimah is the sayyidah of them all.

    i have said before that these terms are not right. the title given in the hadith is 'sayyidatu nisaa'a ahl al-jannah'.

    some people talk about "mawla e kainat", while this is also to be avoided - there can be a ta'weel from a mutawatir hadith: "ali is mawla of whoever i am mawla of"

    mawla also means helper, as mentioned in the verse:


    but sayyidah e ka'inaat is like saying "sayyidatu awwalina wa'l aakhirin" or "sayyidatu waladi aadam".

    you won't find this phrase in earlier generations - i suspect pakistani scholars took it from compatriot shiyis and it was repeated so often in speeches that people just accepted it as permissible.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  15. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    For a moment, I was shocked to hear respected Muhammad Farooque Razvi talk like a neem-rafizi himself until I realised that he was being sarcastic! As usual, precise and to the core. Tamhid-e-Iman reference towards the end of clip.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  16. abu hamzah

    abu hamzah Active Member

  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is time to push back.

    anyone who calls out their fasid aqidah and waywardness is liberally labelled a nasibi. time to call their bluff and ask them hard questions.
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  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    it's a small victory for the liberal secularists (and their qadiyani lapdogs) - against the blasphemy law, regardless whether someone realizes it or not.

    even if Irfan Shah and Khadim Hussain say "Jalali was RIGHTLY arrested, there's no abuse of the law"

    even if Jalali HIMSELF says, "Please hang me but don't repeal the law"

    the liberal secularists (and their qadiyani lapdogs) will scream that it can be misapplied and abused. they will say of course we all love and respect the Prophet 3alaihis salam and even support this law in principle but it worked well for the glorious times of the Khilafate Raashidah and the other Sultanates, but these times are different and we need to consider changing times (they will present some logic like this)

    what all these peerzada's have conveniently forgotten is that Ashraf Jalali was responding to a rafidi hag.

    it's not fitting their agenda right now to respond to that rafidi female who opened her pie-hole against Abu Bakr Siddiq radi Allahu 3anhu

    go ask Kaukab Noorani to give a bayan at a gathering. he will read out his rate card for you, which includes charges for his 2 bodyguards too. (i think even salman khan has just one)

    maybe then, you'll have half a chance of extracting a statement from him.

    yes, he did tawba for calling Sayyidina Wahshi radi Allahu 3anhu as zalim. but why doesn't he speak up against open rafidis like hanif qureshi or that half-rafidi half-clown aamir liaqath.

    these people are all shaanay!

    wonder what they think of Sahibayn disagreeing with Imame A3azam

    Muzaffar Shah sahab - i hated his drawing circles around awam. he said change of words doesn't constitute rujoo3 in response to Ziaul Mustafa sahab. a well crafted sentence. what Jalali did was explain the words he uttered that he was referring to khata ijtihadi. it was not "lafzon ki tabdeeli", it was wazahat on his utterance of "khata". why are they so insistent on rujoo3? if they want rujoo3 they should prove that what he said is a bid3ah or a kufr or haram qat3i. i take his point about our times and the mahol of punjab and that this word might register harsher lughwi meanings in peoples heads, but then that is just maslaha/mafsadah issue. he can't force his opinion down someone's gut, and Jalali amply clarified that he was speaking in istilahi paradigm

    Khadim sahab - yeah well, i was starting to get fond of him when he spoke against european blasphemers like geert wilders. but i once saw a video of someone narrating a dream to him about a great wali praising him and apparently Khadim sahab said something like 'you should hear what Sayyidina Hamza radi Allahu 3anhu said about me in another dream to such and such person'. our job is to act on the zahir only. i still respect him for speaking against the european blasphemers. but if he's honest, let him show his opposition to the likes of hanif qureshi, Munawwar Shah's rafidi colleagues like shahbaz qamar fareedi and so on and we can accept that he is really genuinely annoyed by Jalali's words on the basis of sound principles

    Irfan Shah sahab - yeah well, sab jaante hain. but still, he has himself said there are 10 other angles he can respond to the shias from. let's see him take that rafidi hag that started it all, to task. let's see him blast shahbaz qamar fareedi rather than enjoying his naats. lets see him blast hanif qureshi, let's see him blast paqs once he returns to uk. let's see him come to uk and call the qadiyanis of uk as 'kuttay de puttar' and elaborate on their parents' lechery. let's see him speak up against open blasphemers of europe who like to burn the Quran or hurt the Prophet 3alaihis salam. let's see him put his money (and uk passport) where his mouth is

    it's all showbiz - halal showbiz

    99% of popular peers, muqarrirs and naatkhwans (notekhwans) are just stars in the 2020 showbiz istilahi sense in english (NOT the majazi sense for nujoom in Arabic as is used for Sahaba in hadith)

    you have bollywood masala movies - love story, opposing uncles, smugglers, angry cops, mafia, some comedy, some songs etc.

    these are Sunni masala movies - a majlis with fiery speech or two on some right or wrong fazail or karaamaat, firebrand slogans, naatkhwani (notekhwani with money being showered), some insults thrown at wahabis just to maintain Sunni flavor, lavishly praise Ala Hazrat and explain a word or two from his naats, recite his salam, some murgha and halwa at the end. oh and endless sessions of shakhsiyat parasti- super duper well crafted titles running into 7 lines, hand and feet kissing, and finally everyone walking out of the mehfil as an accomplished wali - what more do you want? (sometimes there are gifts of umrah tickets announced, or secret deals of western visas and immigration assistance)

    to be honest western celebrity shuyukh are no different except for some elements of the masala mix.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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  20. Mehmet Sekil

    Mehmet Sekil Active Member

    Allah Ta'ala grant the people of Pakistan steadfastness on the path of Ehl-iSünnet and allow them to stay firm on the way of their Ulama in particular Imam-i Ehl-iSünnet ve Mücceddidi Ahmâd Rîza Han Hâzretlerî and Hâzret Imâm-ı Rabbâni Ahmad Fârûkî Sirhandi Hâzretlerî (Kuddise Sirruhû)

    I am the slave of the lovers of the Prophet
    صلي الله عليه و سلم
    Neither a Kharijite nor a misled Shi’ite am I;
    I am the bondsman of Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthman,
    And I travel upon the path of ‘Ali, Allah's saint

    Esrar Dede (d.1797)
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020

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